100 points linolevan 3 hours ago 68 comments

pen2l 2 hours ago | parent

Apple, to me, is the winner in the end of this AI chapter.

Distillation works: we can get models leaner, have better performance with lesser and lesser parameters, more efficient, running locally. Apple gets this and we'll see the result with M7 Max/ultra chips and I reckon this will be one of the titular apps when M7 line of chips are introduced.

I guess it explains the haste Anthropic and OpenAI are in to IPO, cash out and leave the the retail investor holding the bag.

bigyabai 2 hours ago | parent

Man, if all that makes Apple a "winner" then I'm dying to hear your assessment of Nvidia.

Factoring in the increased cost of memory, Apple's threatened service revenue and the stagnation of ecosystem products like the Mac and iPad, I think they have a really challenging future to navigate. The whole "sell people a B2C ecosystem" business model is more threatened than ever.

pen2l 2 hours ago | parent

The contrast I'm drawing is running these models locally vs on the cloud and how that would be a selling point well received.

bigyabai 2 hours ago | parent

I don't think that's materially different from what you can do with Nvidia and AMD GPUs, besides the fact that you're limited to Thunderbolt interconnect.

jmuguy 56 minutes ago | parent

And that we don't want to carry a giant, hot, eGPU enclosure around with us.

Affric 41 minutes ago | parent

Yeah, what apple have frequently got right is the actual product/UX.

Capability is one thing but a focus on the actual product, as an teleological destination that is built rather than something cobbled together as a solution to a problem about how to sell what you have generally has taken them the right way.

n_u 2 hours ago | parent

I think the question to me is whether Apple can ship affordable consumer devices with enough memory to run sufficiently useful models sufficiently fast.

Right now 128GB MacBook is the top of the line and you could do Qwen 3.8 Flash or similar.

There is a rumor that the M7 chip can use 1.5TB of memory which would imply Apple is aiming for more memory on devices.[1]

Would that imply the entry-level MacBook will have 128GB and top of the line models could run larger reasoning models? Then the question is price and if any of this will translate to iPhone for on-phone models.

With how expensive memory is, IDK if they can pull this off but I hope they do

[1] https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/semiconductors/ap...

detourdog 2 hours ago | parent

Most likely Apple has been spending whatever they can to get in front of the memory market.

bigyabai 2 hours ago | parent

They definitely are, judging by their price increases.

Even so, DDR5 is so high-demand that it's likely that Apple can't outbid customers like Nvidia or OpenAI when they drive the margins they do.

detourdog 1 hour ago | parent

No but they can pay for new manufacturing to be built. 2-3 lead time should be enough to bankroll the effort. Apple has to much money too sit around hoping that memory situation resolves itself. They were caught flat footed by the RAM market.

kingleopold 12 minutes ago | parent

they didnt realy caught flat, they knew their yoy growth rates and demands. NO AI company had that future demand so certain for all hardware they have. they could easily lock years of ram supply for next years extra demand, becausw they already have cash too, but instead they went after few % margin there or whatever. they now enjoy it

detourdog 5 minutes ago | parent

Are you suggesting that they knew there would be an extreme increase in RAM prices and did nothing because paying more would help their margin?

toufka 2 hours ago | parent

Even if it's 2030 - that's a mere 3 years from now - it will take at least that long for the greater economy to figure out how to use LLMs. And probably a memory boom/bust cycle in that time too.

If Apple, in 2030 has a compute product that a worker can BYO(X) to work that has 2TB RAM, with an encrypted personalized context that can float between agents, then they will be in a very interesting place.

majorchord 1 hour ago | parent

> 2030 - that's a mere 3 years from now

holy shit

radicaldreamer 18 minutes ago | parent

Can you give a citation for your 2030 being 3 years away claim

asdff 45 minutes ago | parent

Why is there a desire to have this stuff on the edge on the engineers lap instead of just building some arbitrarily scalable cluster for I'm guessing cheaper than apple's usual premium? Habitual practice from the engineers who would compile on the device getting hot in their lap? Lack of widespread hpc experience compared to running docker?

bix6 18 minutes ago | parent

People don’t want to send all their private company data to the model providers?

bronco21016 15 minutes ago | parent

Because why not? If you can get unlimited inference with roughly Opus 5.5 intelligence for $10k that easily beats current API pricing. Like not even a question.

codebje 8 minutes ago | parent

Distrust in allowing an unreliable vendor to control the fate of your business?

aurmc 6 minutes ago | parent

Many users would prefer to use a Sonnet-level (or better) LLM without sharing their data with others.

And with a device like this, you pay one single time to buy the product and then never have to think about paying for tokens ever again. For ordinary users that's silly, but for users or businesses chewing through lots of tokens, this means they can create their own turnkey replacement for "the cloud" where the only cost after purchasing the machine is the electricity to run it (which with these machines is very little). Mix that with the privacy benefits and suddenly it makes a lot of sense.

bradknowles 41 minutes ago | parent

The Mac Studio hardware can do 512GB. That might be a hardware limit of the current architecture.

But the family shouldn’t be limited by that. We’re not going to see M6 Max hardware, because the M7 line is being fast-tracked and pulled forward. And I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see M7 capable of 1-2TB or more.

nomel 2 hours ago | parent

Cloud compute has been completely commoditized. Yes, local models will get better and better, but I think for the vast majority it will continue to be both cheaper and more productive to use cloud based models, far into the future, where bulk purchasing, oversubscription, and discounted industrial electric rates can be taken advantage of.

Where I am, it's cheaper to purchase multiple claude subscriptions than it is for the power bill from running a local model. Factor in the hardware costs, and you're looking at a break over a decade in the future, for comparable cloud models. Yes, there's privacy, etc, but now you're down into fractions of a percent of users who care about the government reading the memory of their computer.

xnx 1 hour ago | parent

And if you're on a mobile device, any halfway powerful local model is going to cut your battery life way down.

nomel 1 hour ago | parent

Related, I tried Juggernaut XL (image model) on my iPhone, and ate 2% battery per image!

myphpgothacked 1 hour ago | parent

Are you an apple user or investor.

If you are an investor, you should remember they are a fashion product more than a tech company.

If you are a user, you should remember they are a fashion company more than a tech company.

cyanydeez 1 hour ago | parent

Sure, all you have to do is use only what can climb the walled garden

api 1 hour ago | parent

Take a look at how qwen3.8 27B compares on benchmarks to much, much larger models. A while back I called it the crow of AI models: paradoxically strong given its tiny size, like the brains of crows and other intelligent birds.

It's not comparable to huge models of course, but given the power/size ratio here it shows that serious gains are on the table for models that can run fast on a high-end laptop.

leftnode 1 hour ago | parent

I agree with you, even if many of the pundits say that Apple was left in the dust.

At some point, the real cost of inference/intelligence is going to come due, and the existing open source models will be good enough for 95% of tasks users want (or training their own model(s) will be inexpensive for Apple).

Apple will be there, as usual, to provide secure, on-device, faster inference that the vast majority of their customers will be fine with. Let everyone incur the R&D costs.

iknowstuff 1 hour ago | parent

This is a nerd fever dream. Yeah I’m sure people can’t wait to run local models on their iPhones.

jmuguy 58 minutes ago | parent

For those of using AI day to day, not being beholden to the whims of Anthropic and OpenAI is definitely a dream scenario.

asdff 42 minutes ago | parent

iOS isn't exactly a distro you control either

bix6 17 minutes ago | parent

Is Apple Intelligence not local models currently running on iPhones?

gherkinnn 12 minutes ago | parent

You don't have to sell it as a local model. Sell it as offline capabilities. Sell it as private background processing while your phone is idle and plugged in. Sell it as un-enshittified LLM once Anthropic and OpenAI inevitably screw everybody.

credit_guy 58 minutes ago | parent

> I guess it explains the haste Anthropic and OpenAI are in to IPO, cash out and leave the the retail investor holding the bag.

I don't think so. LLM inference enjoys huge economies of scale. At no point in the foreseeable future will a local model be able to compete with a cloud model in terms of price. Local models will have the privacy angle, but very few people will be willing to pay top dollar for that. There will be some people, for sure, but the vast majority will just use cloud models.

edot 34 minutes ago | parent

Most people just Google something or use the free ChatGPT. They have no clue how the answers get there and frankly would be just as pleased with GPT 4o as they would be with Astra. Questions like “what does this light mean on my dashboard” or “which bidet is best”.

bix6 20 minutes ago | parent

Why do you need huge economies of scale though? For 90%? of queries a local model will be good enough?

gherkinnn 17 minutes ago | parent

Normie queries can be handled quite well by Haiku 4.6 or whatever.

What new bike should I get? How should I rephrase this email? What to do about my persistent headaches? Recipes based on these ingredients?

tmp10423288442 12 minutes ago | parent

Small models inherently have less pre-trained knowledge, which will hurt their performance on queries like this. Moreover a lot of queries benefit from doing web searches, especially if they need to respond to changing conditions such as your bike example. Now you have to send data through a data center anyway for good performance, and probably need to use an API if you don’t want your computer blocked. So what’s the point, when GPT Luna exists if you really want to get a decent model at a rock-bottom price?

iAMkenough 6 minutes ago | parent

Unless cloud OSes take off and kill "AI PCs" and the future of the end-user hardware market, I think it'll be a bit of both.

It'll become easier and more affordable to distill/train/optimize smaller local models to meet your specific work needs. Multi-agent efforts will orchestrate the balance between using on-prem hardware for most tasks, and then defer to cloud models for more demanding/edge-case tasks. Especially if an organization can manage what data is shared with which model.

I also expect cloud providers to eventually start charging different rates for on-peak and off-peak usage, which would incentivize running what you can with the local compute you have otherwise sitting idle across dozens to hundreds of machines in your fleet.

I could be wrong and all your future hardware purchases will be glorified thin clients, with less local processing capabilities than today's laptops, servers, and towers.

ijidak 4 minutes ago | parent

My guess is it will probably be both. There was a time when no one could envision computing without the mainframe.

In the mainframe's heyday, it was difficult to grasp a world in which compute became so dense and so cheap that it made sense for each individual to have all processing and memory on their desk, talk less of on their lap and in their hand.

Of course this time could be different. But, when we look at previous relentless progress in compute and efficiency, then also couple that with the breakthroughs AI itself unlocks, it's hard for me to imagine that centralized AI will meet both the scale and flexibility desired for all use cases.

Just as centralized compute never fully disappeared -- it took the form of client-server computing and the cloud, there's no question that centralized inference will continue to exist.

But it wouldn't surprise me if, ten years from now, 90% of global inference happens at the client.

While simultaneously, the 10% of inference that takes place in the datacenter is wildly lucrative and orders of magnitude greater than today.

Put simply: the inference pie may become so large that both client and datacenter win.

bradknowles 43 minutes ago | parent

In the end, I think companies like OpenAI and Anthropic will be the nameless and faceless backend provider, and they will get decoupled from the users. At which point, if they haven’t already had their multi-trillion dollar IPO and everyone cashed out, I don’t think they’re going to.

Apple and Microsoft and other companies will own that front-end experience with the customer, and it’s not going to matter to most customers whose backend gets used for what.

mgiampapa 2 hours ago | parent

I love that they are bringing Claris back for this. Moof!

platevoltage 2 hours ago | parent

I'm just learning that the Claris brand still exists.

MBCook 2 hours ago | parent

But you’re still in for a ton of pain if you want to run them headless right?

They desperately need to fix that.

mingus88 2 hours ago | parent

How so?

ctkhn 2 hours ago | parent

It was pretty fast to get it set up. It could be better for sure, as it's not a first class concept the same way that it is in linux, but an hour of google search ai mode will get you where you need to go.

q4y2u35uk 2 hours ago | parent

Hopefully it won't be another preinstalled bloatware app like Image Playground. macOS enshittification has been greatly accelerating, even giving Win 11 Home a run for its money.

w10-1 2 hours ago | parent

OMG after 25 years, Claris gets something beyond FileMaker (among the most legacy software still alive)? Claris would not have the engineering talent, so why would Apple use them as a vector?

detourdog 1 hour ago | parent

Currently FileMaker is a really expensive but sophisticated developer deployment environment. They stayed pretty true to the original vision in the mid 80’s when they merged their DOS database and added a gui layer for the Macintosh. I started on version 2 and it was at its best at when it went relational in version 3. Since then they have been focusing on deployment of graphical data applications and being a better database.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FileMaker

simonw 1 hour ago | parent

"Harbor is currently in a private preview under Apple’s Claris brand"

There's a name I haven't heard in a long time! Claris (always an Apple subsidiary, since being founded in 1987) renamed themselves to FileMaker in 1998, but apparently they rebranded back to Claris in 2019.

Looks like they've mostly just released annual upgrades to FileMaker for the past decade, but they did add MCP to it last year: https://www.claris.com/blog/2025/why-mcp-matters-for-claris-...

oidar 1 hour ago | parent

If they keep Harbor under the Claris umbrella, that is a nudge that they are doing it for SMB market instead of the consumer market and it will likely be a onerous subscription to use it.

myphpgothacked 1 hour ago | parent

Only took them 3 years for something that's inevitably worse than lm studio.

Users will praise it still. What's the phrase, Apple distortion field?

zf00002 1 hour ago | parent

You can chat with the local model that ships with macos on your M1+ mac right now. There's a few servers on github that make it easy.

WillPostForFood 1 hour ago | parent

You can also "fm chat" in terminal

lethologica 1 hour ago | parent

Could you elaborate please?

asdff 41 minutes ago | parent

Can you shut that thing off?

liuliu 1 hour ago | parent

https://getlocalcode.app/ runs local AI models (larger ones of course, DeepSeek 4.1 Flash 1017) easy. You can download and try it now. The problem is elsewhere: you cannot find M5 Ultra that you can purchase and set it up today.

jedbrooke 1 hour ago | parent

> Cluster for scale: “Connect two or more Thunderbolt 5-capable Mac computers and Harbor pools their unified memory into a single inference resource. Run models that exceed any single computer’s capacity, or serve more concurrent requests across your cluster.”

This seems like the main way it would differentiate itself over existing solutions like LMStudio etc.

chews 1 hour ago | parent

Deepseek has found safe harbor!

gizmodo59 1 hour ago | parent

I really want capable models local but it’s impossible for me to afford the hardware. If there is a magical way to run glm 5.3 without quantization at 80-100tps with a total spend of less than 10K I’d be happy but that’s impossible now.

maipen 1 hour ago | parent

$200 a month is only $2400 a year. That’s 4.16 years until you spend 10k.

I don’t find it reasonable at all. Subsidized Subscriptions or api for cheaper models, is the best value.

But the future of AI is so uncertain, regarding model sizes. I don’t think making huge hardware investments is reasonable for individuals.

EddieRingle 29 minutes ago | parent

> $200 a month is only $2400 a year. That’s 4.16 years until you spend 10k. I don’t find it reasonable at all. Subsidized Subscriptions or api for cheaper models, is the best value.

If you buy your own hardware, then after those four years you still have that hardware, and it likely still holds significant value. Plus you know the local model you're running today won't change or suddenly degrade in four months, let alone four years. Whereas after four years of paying subscriptions and API costs, you have literally nothing.

SoftTalker 12 minutes ago | parent

Four year old hardware has almost zero value.

tonymet 38 minutes ago | parent

Why so much investment in local models when the remote ones are so cheap ? Everyone was fine with remote compute & storage before AI, now they balk?

t-3 16 minutes ago | parent

Cheap remote is probably not going to last forever. Memory prices will eventually drop. Local models will be more than enough for many purposes when the hardware is available cheaply enough.

tonymet 9 minutes ago | parent

that's a lot of ifs / whens , and the remote models work right now, and are cheap. It's not a gym membership.

kenferry 29 minutes ago | parent

"Harbor is currently in a private preview under Apple’s Claris brand, but it seems likely that we’ll see it launch to the public in the weeks and months ahead."

Claris?? Ok, this sounds like it's just someone's personal project. Something like this that was actually going to ship would be in a different org.

apparent 3 minutes ago | parent

This is what I've wanted for the last few years. I have played around with local models and had some success, but I don't want to deal with the hassle of setting up, updating, etc.

If all of this were easy, I would happily invest in new dedicated hardware to run it. This could be a full-blown Mac or it could be a souped up HomePod-type device, loaded with RAM. Better yet, make it a revitalized Matter-enabled Airport!