Yet another Hacker News

Queens Public library under ransomware attack e-borrowing suspended

66 points rustyhancock 3 hours ago 52 comments

rustyhancock 3 hours ago | parent

Unfortunately, QPL has suffered a ransomware incident and currently much of the online access is unavailable

lynx97 3 hours ago | parent

I wish the headlines around such things were more honest and would just say the truth: "$company is currently offline because we never really invested in security and thought we could just wing it"

reaperducer 2 hours ago | parent

I wish the headlines around such things were more honest and would just say the truth: "$company is currently offline because we never really invested in security and thought we could just wing it"

Yes, because public libraries are well known for being awash in spare cash and never ever operate on a shoestring budget.

28304283409234 2 hours ago | parent

Exactly. No sarcasm. Public services should stop hiding the pain. People voted for this. They should carry the pain. In this case the QPL should have said decades ago: “we cannot offer these services in a secure manner on this budget, therefor we will stop offering our services.” Instead they choose to “wing it”.

matwood 2 hours ago | parent

It should be noted that the NY library system (NYPL, QPL, BPL) are some of the most well funded libraries in the world, and they still have issues like this. Smaller libraries have no chance.

compsciphd 1 hour ago | parent

I'm unconvinced this is true.

Most of what libraries do technologically is now outsourced to SAAS companies that specialize in the library space (there are at least 2 major one in the US, and I think at least 3 or 4). (encore and bibliocommons are the 2 major ones that I remembered and am pretty sure I've seen at least 2 others).

If everything you are doing is in the cloud, I'd argue that recovering from a ransomware attack is more of a question of if the SAAS company did its job right (which it should be more capable of handling). Of course, that's a reasonable question if they did (similarly why I prefer paying with paypal or google or even (as not so common) amazon third party payment systems than a retailers own internal payment system, yeah they might screw up too, but they invest a lot more into not screwing it up).

tweetle_beetle 1 hour ago | parent

There's a good list illustrating the market at https://librarytechnology.org//products/

I've noticed Spydus seems to have a big marketshare in the UK.

soco 2 hours ago | parent

And they would risk being completely shut down, I assume. Is that a better option? I'm not even talking about the livelihood of the librarians, but about the loss of the public service.

UpsideDownRide 2 hours ago | parent

Winging it and making do with what you can is still probably a great deal for the public. Assuming that something shouldn't be done if it can't be done very well is an interesting position to take.

typicaldev 1 hour ago | parent

Typical developer response: if you can’t do X 100% properly you shouldn’t be doing it.

Sure, let’s close down all libraries and all public services for that matter. Let the public feel the pain. They will understand and vote better next time, right?

You think it is lack of information that got people to vote for this nonsense?

dspillett 1 hour ago | parent

Closing things down is the argument taken to a logical extreme. Could they function without collecting that much PII though? If you can't do it right, don't do it, is far more reasonable when limited to just the collection of PII or other potentially sensitive information. Some identifying data might be absolutely required of course, but the great many cases like this show that collecting the absolute minimum must become the default choice.

lynx97 1 hour ago | parent

If you leave your car unlocked and police detects that, they can confiscate your keys and probably even fine you after you collected them. The same principle applies to everything. To a certain extend, it is your duty to secure things. Just putting a sign there "please dont fuck with me" isn't enough these days.

dspillett 1 hour ago | parent

What if the budget is cut so harshly that there is no budget for someone who might potentially notice the problem (and fix it before it is exploited, or make the “we have to stop” decision) at all? The problem becomes undetectable until exploited, so you can't proactively shut things down.

Your assumption that enough people would change their vote (or non-vote if they didn't turn out previously) based on this to make a difference, I think is unlikely to be correct. People complain a lot about public services when they don't work well, but seldom consider (or do but seldom prioritise them) them at the ballot box.

xtiansimon 26 minutes ago | parent

That's the yardstick we use for corporations who put profit before safety, and you want use it with government services. Good luck with that.

p-e-w 2 hours ago | parent

That’s not an excuse. They chose to operate an online service, one that collects personal information. That entails the responsibility to secure it. If they can’t do that, they shouldn’t have offered the service.

piker 2 hours ago | parent

Sort of a "she was asking for it" kind of situation, I take it?

p-e-w 1 hour ago | parent

If you process personal data, you must secure it against attacks. Are you suggesting that they could just put the addresses of their customers on their website with a warning not to download them, and if someone downloaded them anyway then it would be the fault of that person that they were leaked?

gusgus01 1 hour ago | parent

According to this logic, anyone using PHP should also not be processing personal data, and of course Java, and also Javascript, and any other language that has had a huge zero-day. In NYS, your name is considered personal data, so these libraries should not have any digital collection of the names of their members let alone any online services. Although, I'd prefer we start with Meta, Amazon, Alphabet, Apple, etc when it comes to making them lose the right to storing all personal data every time they have a vulnerability.

dspillett 1 hour ago | parent

There is a difference between being hit by the exploit of a zero-day and being hit by the exploit of something (incorrect security implementations) that has been known to be incorrect for years, decades even. The zero-day in PHP is not your fault (unless perhaps you wrote or maintain that bit of PHP) but bad security implementation using PHP (silly example: not bothering to hash password because it is easier and allows you to allow for typos which is convenient for the user) is ultimately the organisations fault.

SkyBelow 43 minutes ago | parent

Society hold a strong double standard when it comes to the notion of blame in criminal acts. In some cases, it is fully put on the criminal. In other cases, it is put on victims of the criminal. While each case can use logic to try to defend it, they are different standards not used consistently. Trying to call out this double standard is a sort of act of profaning the current social norm and not appreciated by most, no different than trying to attack the dominant moral system 500 or 1000 years ago for inconsistencies.

If we were being consistent, then to your later question, yes. But pointing this out is picking at society's reverse scale.

dspillett 1 hour ago | parent

Not really. The victim here is the people whose information has been distributed, not the system (and the people running it) the information was exfiltrated from.

If we are going to use an SA analogy, this is closer to the recent case of a hotel chain where there were several instances of staff giving “randoms” keys to rooms that they should not have. Best practise procedures were not being followed, the ne'er-do-wells took advantage of this, someone else suffered as a result.

Steve16384 1 hour ago | parent

Can any online service guarantee security?

p-e-w 1 hour ago | parent

The relevant part isn’t whether they can guarantee security, it’s whether they followed best practices in attempting to ensure it.

No restaurant can “guarantee” that you won’t die from eating their food, but that doesn’t mean anything goes in the kitchen.

account42 1 hour ago | parent

Or alternatively we could hold criminals responsible and return to a high trust society where you can provide public services without having your own military department.

You are aware that personal information is routinely stored in places that you can break into with a literal brick to smash a window? Somehow its only computers where people turn off their brains and argue that proactive measures need to be 100% effective at blocking all attacks no matter how high the cost.

p-e-w 1 hour ago | parent

> Or alternatively we could hold criminals responsible

Ok. Where are the criminals who did this?

Geezus_42 41 minutes ago | parent

> Somehow its only computers where people turn off their brains and argue that proactive measures need to be 100% effective at blocking all attacks no matter how high the cost.

I don't think I've ever seen anyone say they should be 100% effective. Even those physical locations follow some physical security practices. The difference is that computers can be attacked from literally anywhere in the world, and good luck finding the people who did it.

jonathanstrange 1 hour ago | parent

That's a somewhat naive take, ransomware attacks have been launched in the past against many organizations that spend a lot on security such as the Dodd Group, various airports, healthcare providers, and energy infrastructure. The Ukraine war has shown that virtually nothing is secure against dedicated attacks, all kinds of government sites, satellite communications, and even live TV programming have been attacked successfully by both sides. In the war, the attacks are more destructive, but the same techniques for entry could also be used by ransomware.

rustyhancock 21 minutes ago | parent

Libraries also have a extremely difficult task, they have complex, bespoke/customized older technology backends.

Their systems are largely open to the public, their computer spaces might be the only computer some have access to. There was a time when the advice about a dodgy file was to just open it at the library computer.

Much of their staff might be outreach hires and so limited/no workexperience that might have endured corporate training around information governance or cyber security.

And they do that on a budget where they can't afford shoe strings.

mbac32768 1 hour ago | parent

What's the right percentage of its budget a year that a public library should spend on cybersecurity? 10%? More or less?

Geezus_42 30 minutes ago | parent

If only we could have some kind of jobs program where the government could pay people to fix their crap. A side benefit would be a reduction in unemployment.

mapontosevenths 5 minutes ago | parent

There are no unemployed cybersecurity professionals (who are qualified). There is likely a fraction of a percent who are "Between jobs" and that's about it. It's still very difficult to find and hire qualified candidates, even despite the recent surge in programmers making the leap.

jareklupinski 33 minutes ago | parent

when it is other nation states that are attacking, its up to the nation you are in to defend you. you dont expect costco to defend itself against Spetznaz?

honestly blame Elmo / DOGE for this; they are the $company who divested your security for you, thinking you could just "wing" it too

RobotToaster 2 hours ago | parent

That seems a pretty terrible target for ransomware, it's not like public libraries have huge amounts of money.

lxgr 2 hours ago | parent

Immoral criminals? Now I've seen everything.

account42 1 hour ago | parent

The point is that there are surely targets that are better funded and thus more likely to pay out large sums of money in order to fix things.

lxgr 1 hour ago | parent

Definitely, but ransomware groups generally have incremental customer acquisition costs/margins that most other industries can only dream of. They'll encrypt first, ask questions/set prices later. The whole process might even be fully automated at this point, "thanks" to cryptocurrencies.

I remember hearing that they do have customer support, though! Not sure if you can escalate to a sales rep to get a personalized quote or non-profit discount from there.

Geezus_42 1 hour ago | parent

I think Darknet Diaries talked about that. I don't remember what episode.

matkoniecz 53 minutes ago | parent

> Not sure if you can escalate to a sales rep to get a personalized quote or non-profit discount from there.

some groups offer it (not out of goodness: rather on price discrimination grounds)

hahn-kev 1 hour ago | parent

Right? Like what are they going to delete? The digital books? Who had what checked out?

redwood 1 hour ago | parent

Kind of like "erase the debts" from Fight Club? "Haven't returned that digital book? Keep it!"

Geezus_42 1 hour ago | parent

I highly doubt it was targeted.

rskeens 35 minutes ago | parent

A California nonprofit's computers were once stolen only to be returned by the thieves.

That would also have arguably been more risky of a redemptive act than the right thing to do in this circumstance.

thatsabadlook 15 minutes ago | parent

Agreed. This is just shitty. Libraries are one of the few things holding the world together right now, and no they don't make tons of money...

rusbra 2 hours ago | parent

Is this due to the php vulnerability from a few weeks ago? Guessing they were on some php-based cms, and their staff never got around to fixing it in time.

sheepjumpmoons 37 minutes ago | parent

Ransomware infections frequently start with a phished user, not a popped web app.

redwood 1 hour ago | parent

Today I learned that Queens has a public library system that predated the consolidated New York City library system and fiercely fought to maintain independence rather than come under the control of a Manhattan-based system

rsstack 58 minutes ago | parent

Brooklyn too. (Bronx and Staten Island being served only by NYPL, the “Manhattan” one)

lelandfe 34 minutes ago | parent

And the consequence of this is that I have to get three different library cards haha.

rsstack 19 minutes ago | parent

Another consequence is that on the Libby app you have better chances to find something available, and each one’s limits are separate!

PLenz 10 minutes ago | parent

The tbree systems in NYC also serve the entire state, not just the city. Any NYS resident can get a card at each. I do and use the e book systems for all at the same time even though I rarely go into the city these days.

brador 35 minutes ago | parent

It’s a library.

Wipe the system and start again.

gosub100 25 minutes ago | parent

should be simple, restore from backup. right ?