738 points zzzeek 3 hours ago 521 comments
Dunewalnut22 2 hours ago | parent
wduncan 1 hour ago | parent
titzer 2 hours ago | parent
jareklupinski 2 hours ago | parent
it might listen, and turn...
smallmancontrov 2 hours ago | parent
cuttysnark 1 hour ago | parent
laweijfmvo 2 hours ago | parent
the 2nd amendment (the entire Bill of Rights) was written to protect us from our own government, but it’s way more convenient to just shoot brown people or people who speak a different language.
goda90 2 hours ago | parent
shostack 49 minutes ago | parent
dmm 2 hours ago | parent
chasd00 2 hours ago | parent
sixothree 2 hours ago | parent
ram1500natrluvr 1 hour ago | parent
Some people view the actions of ICE, like in this article, to be crossing a line that would normally provoke a response from second amendment types.
MisterMunchkin 1 hour ago | parent
HumblyTossed 1 hour ago | parent
fedpost 2 hours ago | parent
The leftist gun community is mostly focused on arming the LGBTQ community at the moment though. Your chances of getting canoed while trying to stab a trans woman are way up over the past couple years.
appreciatorBus 1 hour ago | parent
buellerbueller 1 hour ago | parent
culi 14 minutes ago | parent
This paper is heavily rejected by mainstream criminologists. It relies on victim memorial lists for a count of victims and it relies on a database made by an anti-Trans group for the perpetrator count. This leads to both a significant undercount of victims and overcount of perpetrators.
The ONS has come out against it and said that official homicide data does not track transgender status so there is no official data to back this research up on. Pretty much all mainstream criminologists reject it.
None of this has stopped rightwingers from heavily circulating this paper of course. Somehow I doubt science is the goal here.
cyberjerkXX 2 hours ago | parent
ecocentrik 2 hours ago | parent
bediger4000 1 hour ago | parent
buellerbueller 1 hour ago | parent
watwut 1 hour ago | parent
If that was true, that is why.
Now in reality, that was not true, they stood with nazi cause they themselves are nazi who want to bully others.
cyberjerkXX 19 minutes ago | parent
I can gauge how much of an authoritarian you are with one simple question, is it immoral to privately own the means of production?
LightBug1 1 hour ago | parent
kannanvijayan 1 hour ago | parent
Havoc 2 hours ago | parent
nbajka 2 hours ago | parent
ironmagma 2 hours ago | parent
bilbo0s 2 hours ago | parent
Or, more appropriately, on an election's notice.
A plurality of voters preferred to have leaders of a certain political persuasion.
Now, we can complain about the fine print in the platform of those leaders, but..
I mean..
democracy is a team sport. We voted them in.
It's like football:
Yes.
That's an awesome DB. Guy got 2 interceptions and 4 TFLs in that game. I'd love to get that safety for my team.
All that said, his offense didn't score. So guess what? He gets to take an "L" too. That's just how it works.
usefulcat 2 hours ago | parent
That depends entirely on the degree to which those in power will respect the results of an election.
ajross 2 hours ago | parent
nbajka 2 hours ago | parent
No, I’m not doing that. I’m not even American. But I know that giving someone a weapon means they can eventually try to use it against you.
SpicyLemonZest 1 hour ago | parent
ajross 26 minutes ago | parent
So the way you treat that is by calling out and resisting the attempts to weaponize the government in new ways, not just throwing up your hands because it was "eventually" going to be used anyway. No, it's bad. You should say that it's bad and take action to oppose it.
Larrikin 2 hours ago | parent
If you have deeply unpopular policies but only 1/3rd of the country is expected to vote, telling everyone their vote won't matter is the best stance to take.
Windchaser 2 hours ago | parent
Is that true, though? I don't expect that the individual biases of officers or judges, or the institutional biases of the police or immigration departments, can switch at a moment's notice.
cucumber3732842 2 hours ago | parent
mft_ 2 hours ago | parent
smallmancontrov 1 hour ago | parent
datsci_est_2015 59 minutes ago | parent
JayNitram 2 hours ago | parent
sixothree 2 hours ago | parent
SauciestGNU 1 hour ago | parent
datsci_est_2015 51 minutes ago | parent
That’s not to say we shouldn’t have armed officers (or not have a capitalist society), we just shouldn’t allow rhetoric to convince us of some false ideal. The 3rd and 4th amendment have a spirit that should be much more embraced and expanded at the expense of law enforcement’s ability to do their “job”.
adjejmxbdjdn 2 hours ago | parent
Heck, historically the cops have even broken up peaceful union protests, despite being in unions themselves, throwing away all class solidarity in favor of their right wing leanings.
And the police unions have uniquely been extremely right wing, other than during rare highly localized conditions (often involving the democratic candidate being center right at least).
BrianGragg 2 hours ago | parent
tfrancisl 1 hour ago | parent
geraneum 1 hour ago | parent
dcss_gardener 1 hour ago | parent
These aren't universally positive attributes I'm not necessarily praising them. But militaries have come down into a very broad spectrum of positions around specific coups, revolutions, insurrections etc including abetting or openly joining them, both pro- and anti-democratic.
This is also why the second trump term has been so focused on officer purges! You definitely want the military to come down on your side and making sure all of its leadership is on your side is a reliable step if you can take it.
Americans should absolutely imo not be looking for their military to help them with the problems they're facing. But depending on the exact arrangement, people in other countries may have good reason to hope for that.
tfrancisl 1 hour ago | parent
ecocentrik 2 hours ago | parent
cellsstudio 2 hours ago | parent
monneyboi 2 hours ago | parent
intothemild 2 hours ago | parent
ngruhn 1 hour ago | parent
pixl97 1 hour ago | parent
ngruhn 1 hour ago | parent
ICE has murdered protestors but each case is a headline. Start worrying when it's not a headline anymore. Either because the media are suppressed or because it becomes so common that it's not newsworthy anymore. Wait until the army indiscriminately opens fire on crowds of people and the government isn't even trying to justify it. And when you hear stories of people just disappearing. Then you will be scared to post comments like this.
pixl97 1 hour ago | parent
I fireproof my house before it catches on fire.
0xDEAFBEAD 40 minutes ago | parent
I feel like a big lesson of US politics over the past few years is if you hyperventilate and accuse your opponents of doing some type of drastic shit which they haven't yet done, that backfires by creating political cover and possibly even motivation to do the drastic bad thing. "Do not obey in advance" is a related concept. By helping to make the unthinkable thinkable, you might just be doing a favor for a potential tyrant.
Anyways, HN loves to glaze China, and they have much stiffer speech controls. I think these complaints are motivated more by anti-Trump sentiment than a genuine love for liberty.
xxs 1 hour ago | parent
Most of the East side of the Wall was like that, it's just less known.
jzb 59 minutes ago | parent
Er. No? Start worrying before it is not a headline anymore. If you wait to worry (and take action) at the point you propose, it's become too late to do anything about it.
It's sad that this seems to be a prevalent attitude. "It hasn't gotten unbearable yet so there's no reason to take action now." Ideally we'd be pushing back on these things long long long before they're even a remote possibility.
We still have roving packs of ICE people abducting people across the country with almost no accountability. We're not far from "the army indiscriminately opens fire on crowds of people". I like to believe that if ICE were to go even farther and do something like this that it would trigger a mass pushback/reaction, but TBH I don't feel entirely confident that it would.
"Either because the media are suppressed" -- we're seeing media suppression now, from two angles: the head of the FCC is literally trying to intimidate media outlets regularly, the most recent (that I'm aware of) being telling media outlets not to run polls that show how unpopular Trump is. The other angle is allowing the buy-up/consolidation of media by right-wing oligarchs who then start tampering with news coverage.
djeastm 56 minutes ago | parent
By then it's too late
MSFT_Edging 56 minutes ago | parent
This level of control is unnecessary when the population is mentally captive and the chilling effect of police violence prevents any actual action.
kakacik 12 minutes ago | parent
Btw I've lived in one of those regimes. Yes people often privately expressed their stark opinions against the system, sometimes in more vague forms also publicly. There is infinite amount of gray between those 2 extremes, and US is already somewhere there moving darker a bit each day.
JayNitram 1 hour ago | parent
qup 51 minutes ago | parent
boringg 48 minutes ago | parent
KerrAvon 39 minutes ago | parent
JayNitram 30 minutes ago | parent
https://www.npr.org/2026/09/10/nx-s1-5961220/dhs-ice-observe...
aisenik 33 minutes ago | parent
yieldcrv 46 minutes ago | parent
classic American cope
and this round, everyone without birth naturalization is being investigated for removal based on their speech, when it doesn’t match the state opinion
ta2304980 33 minutes ago | parent
Another important concept is the Dual State; there will always be some people who remain within the Normative State even as it shrinks and shrinks, and while the horrors of the Prerogative State become more and more extreme.
Windchaser 2 hours ago | parent
And: which country has the highest incarceration rate in the world?
technothrasher 2 hours ago | parent
atmavatar 1 hour ago | parent
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_St...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_ra...
mdp2021 1 hour ago | parent
> [El Salvador (16.5/Mln), Cuba (8/Mln), Rwanda (6/Mln), Turkmenistan (5.5/Mln), United States (5.5/Mln)]
doginasuit 2 hours ago | parent
nailer 1 hour ago | parent
actionfromafar 44 minutes ago | parent
ourmandave 32 minutes ago | parent
And then during the debate, when asked about another fascist, racist, far right, or white supremist group, the usual response was given, "Who dat?"
But then were told to "stand back, and stand by."
elgertam 2 hours ago | parent
uxp100 2 hours ago | parent
zimbu668 2 hours ago | parent
smallmancontrov 1 hour ago | parent
zimbu668 1 hour ago | parent
tclancy 1 hour ago | parent
zimbu668 1 hour ago | parent
baobabKoodaa 1 hour ago | parent
carlosjobim 1 hour ago | parent
elgertam 28 minutes ago | parent
In fact, let's use your argument. People drown accidentally in swimming pools regularly. So then if some "protester" decided to set up one of those portable pools and forcibly hold people down under water in one, wouldn't they be guilty of attempted murder?
Using things that are known to cause death and serious harm in a way that is intended to cause death and serious harm is in fact the thing I'm against.
WarmWash 1 hour ago | parent
But instead a few of them had guns, and one of them decided to get into a shoot-off with the police.
You are unequivocally fucked if you have any degree of association with those people doing shit like that on federal property.
(the bodycams and security footage for this event are on youtube)
corps_and_code 1 hour ago | parent
WarmWash 1 hour ago | parent
tavavex 1 hour ago | parent
UncleMeat 6 minutes ago | parent
elgertam 1 hour ago | parent
And please don't forget the attempted murder that the leader really did carry out with a firearm.
nailer 1 hour ago | parent
adamrezich 58 minutes ago | parent
reactordev 2 hours ago | parent
tantalor 2 hours ago | parent
https://www.nytimes.com/2026/10/27/podcasts/the-daily/antifa...
tldr, the govt (not the court) decides whether it is terrorism or not, which elevates misdemeanor into decades long felony conviction.
The J6 crowd was not charged with terrorism.
so-gala-massey 1 hour ago | parent
ledbettj 1 hour ago | parent
Unless of course your guy ends up in power again and offers you pardons and reparations.
dgellow 12 minutes ago | parent
cauch 1 hour ago | parent
I know that idiots will argue that "attacking a government building with explosives and committing attempted murder" is "technically correct", but it is stupidity to not understand that it leaves out important nuances.
rc-research 1 hour ago | parent
The government's case explicitly tried to throw the book at all involved (including 30 years for someone not even at the protest; for moving a box of anti-fascist literature) in line with new executive direction including NSPM-7[1][2].
The BBC article you linked takes many of the procecutor's statements at face value. Looking into this case more may illuminate how wide this survailance and punnishment net will be cast against the administration's political enemies.
[1]https://theintercept.com/2026/06/23/prairieland-texas-ice-pr... [2]https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/09/coun...
UncleMeat 6 minutes ago | parent
zimbu668 2 hours ago | parent
gambiting 2 hours ago | parent
warmwaffles 2 hours ago | parent
moron4hire 1 hour ago | parent
its_ethan 1 hour ago | parent
If you're using your 2a rights to fight against the government (tyrannical or not), it does not free you from facing the consequences if you don't "win", or prevent the government from fighting back (in self defense, or otherwise).
It's an incredibly serious thing to say "the government is so tyrannical that we need to use violence to overthrow it" (see: history).
Roark66 26 minutes ago | parent
Why do you need to protest at the slightest sign of the government becoming authoritarian when you have "the ultimate argument of force" on your side?
But it's an illusion. Guns are a nice hobby I enjoy as well. They are great for self defence, but good luck to you if you think you'll use it "against government tyranny"... You'll be dead and no one will care.
2nd amendment makes an ultimate duty of a citizen in a democratic country - to not allow it to turn into a tyranny, into "you don't need to worry about politics, worse case scenario you have your AR15 and a box of ammo".
While in a country without such false ideas people get out and protest in mass numbers.
I don't think I've ever heard of a proper protest happening in USA. The kind of protest that involves 10% of adults at least and happens in every city and town. (Also I'm not talking about rioting like in France)
Burning down a school to protest against class overcrowding is like something straight from idiocracy.
Peaceful protests work on governments, even those hell bent on authoritarianism, but they have to be massive.
Let's say you have a million or two of people show up in Washington. Will it make any difference? Nope. Why? Because it's under half a percent of US population.
Let's now say 10% of people in every city and town go to their town centre and protest. Does this make a difference? Yes it does, because it shows real power to everyone.
jkestner 1 hour ago | parent
The First Amendment was written by people who experienced this same chilling of free speech.
flowerlad 1 hour ago | parent
David Hearn, the former Olympic canoeist was accused and indicted for damaging the Lincoln Memorial Reflecting Pool, purely as a scapegoat.
All federal funds to the state of Colorado frozen to force them to release a convicted-and-imprisoned ally of the administration (see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOE6DTMjPEc )
All of this happening out in the open, no checks, no balances. Yeah it isn't "pretty close", it is a police state.
ted_bunny 1 hour ago | parent
leoqa 17 minutes ago | parent
derwiki 2 hours ago | parent
multiplegeorges 2 hours ago | parent
Wow, I wonder how they got SSH session logs?!
The breadcrumb trail here is chilling.
zhivota 2 hours ago | parent
john_strinlai 2 hours ago | parent
"technical and network-activity records from fly.io included:
SSH session logs (CSV format) listing multiple "New SSH session" entries for <redacted> with verified=true between approximately 2026-03-26 and 2026-04-01, timestamped in UTC.
outbound-connection records (CSV format) reflecting numerous TCP port 443 connections originating from internal fly.io addresses <redacted> to external IP addresses attributed to AMAZON-02 (Amazon Web Services) in the US and Cloudflarenet (Cloudflare)".
john_strinlai 2 hours ago | parent
"i wonder if fly.io bothers to vet/challenge records requests or if they just hand data over".
(this one can be edited, though. very strange)
dns_snek 2 hours ago | parent
john_strinlai 1 hour ago | parent
thanks dang/tomhow.
MSFT_Edging 1 hour ago | parent
john_strinlai 1 hour ago | parent
the most annoying part is that i got no indication that i was suddenly shadowbanned. if someone didn't tell me, it would have probably been a day or two at least of wondering why i had no engagement on my comments.
no notification, no appeal system outside of email and pray. very cool system.
c22 12 minutes ago | parent
It's nice that this place maintains an email endpoint that's actually staffed by humans who can intervene if needed. That's more than can be said about most places these days.
gjsman-1000 2 hours ago | parent
If there's a hack, HN will say, "How could Fly.io not be keeping logs? Malpractice!"
If there's a warrant, HN will say, "How could Fly.io be keeping logs? Malpractice!"
3form 1 hour ago | parent
gjsman-1000 1 hour ago | parent
"They don't know who hacked them? Malpractice. What if it was the government?"
fatty_patty89 1 hour ago | parent
gjsman-1000 1 hour ago | parent
dylan604 1 hour ago | parent
gjsman-1000 1 hour ago | parent
tyromaniac 53 minutes ago | parent
3form 48 minutes ago | parent
paimapi 1 hour ago | parent
dns_snek 2 hours ago | parent
brightball 49 minutes ago | parent
omgwtfbyobbq 24 minutes ago | parent
api 2 hours ago | parent
For you they at least require a warrant. Usually. Unless you're crossing the border or are undocumented or something.
throooooo 1 hour ago | parent
dcss_gardener 1 hour ago | parent
The problem here is the cops not where the computer sits.
veidr 1 hour ago | parent
actionfromafar 1 hour ago | parent
veidr 51 minutes ago | parent
Although it may still be possible that some jurisdictions will emerge, even within the US, that have the capacity to preserve basic civil liberties for their residents, whether via tacit agreement or overt paramilitary enforcement.
I wouldn't bet my kids' childhoods on that happening, though.
actionfromafar 29 minutes ago | parent
shadowgovt 1 hour ago | parent
A critical mass of people pushing back against fascism leave a country, and that country tends to devolve into the kind of place that starts wars with its neighbors.
This is why I always turn my head and squint at Americans fleeing to Canada, as if an America that fully embraced everything they see it doing wouldn't come right after Canada next.
jquery 14 minutes ago | parent
trvz 57 minutes ago | parent
xoa 33 minutes ago | parent
Having your own server and infra, at least in part.
>Having my own door kicked down and my dog shot so they can get at my personal home server?
The government doesn't have infinite resources, nor is it immune to political considerations (obviously, that's the problem here!). There is an enormous, qualitative and quantitative difference between:
1) we must get an actual warrant in a lot of different physical jurisdictions across the country all with different judges and then spend the money and availability to send physical meat agents to said locations, often rural and remote, across the country to an unknown physical situation with at least some areas where people might shoot at us, and all equipment needed for that, and will by definition have to disclose everything to our targets
vs 2) an agent can comfortably from their central office chair use a preexisting automated system to a central cloud portal to demand info secretly from companies that will just comply without any question
Scale is inherent in the topic here. It's not just "why", "HOW" is "ICE running one of the largest anti-left surveillance ops"? Well, in part because they can do so so cheaply, efficiently, and stealthily via purely electronic means. They aren't kicking down ten million doors and shooting ten million dogs, and indeed they CAN'T do that, not because they wouldn't like to but because it's physically impossible with their resources and would provoke furious (undoubtedly including some lethal) pushback.And again, even if absolutely nothing else, it means something to know they're after you. Nothing stops you from immediately surrendering your server when asked, but you can then also instantly get a lawyer/support and push back right then and there. You can't adapt to what you either never even realize happened or only realized too late.
dcss_gardener 16 minutes ago | parent
I think it is a threat model thing primarily, which I should have been more clear about. I'm more worried about being lawfully murdered in front of my family than I am going to jail because my ssh sessions were read. But the ssh thing is a totally valid concern for someone doing different activities than I am and I shouldn't have dismissed it.
omgwtfbyobbq 26 minutes ago | parent
You can also use proxys and/or tor to create external accounts/upload stuff.
ashleyn 56 minutes ago | parent
lioeters 34 minutes ago | parent
cestith 10 minutes ago | parent
piltdownman 9 minutes ago | parent
At this point there's a non-zero chance you and your employees are detained on spurious national security grounds, or simply end up in an ICE internment centre - accidently or otherwise.
dijit 7 minutes ago | parent
Two things are true
1) Tech has become more financial people and "techbros" than principled nerds.
2) The powers of the USG have become a lot stronger and far reaching- quite literally to the level where talking about complying with an order is itself a crime.
mbesto 47 minutes ago | parent
xena 44 minutes ago | parent
dijit 3 minutes ago | parent
Coincidentally he's also the most emotional when I imply that Signal could be a honeypot. (since they pay lip service to open source and work very hard to kill third party clients while also tying physical identity to the messenger etc;)...
... a conspiracy theorist might start drawing conclusions.
winterqt 2 hours ago | parent
api 2 hours ago | parent
Also SSH isn't a perfectly opaque protocol. There's stuff you can use to fingerprint e.g. client/server versions and often narrow it to architecture, OS, even OS version. That helps.
MisterMunchkin 1 hour ago | parent
zzzeek 1 hour ago | parent
smallmancontrov 1 hour ago | parent
deepsquirrelnet 1 hour ago | parent
Now they can just chip away at whatever regulation is left, and create mistrust in oversight bodies and the rigging of the game is complete.
Better than communism, the government hardly even has to pretend to work for the benefit of the people, because the wealth imbalance has a closed circuit of money between private entities and elections. They can bring suitcases of cash, walk in the front door literally holding a chainsaw and prune off every olive branch extended toward the citizens.
These election "investments" are clearly paying off at high multiples now. Why spend your money in a capitalist competition when you can more efficiently spend it in public elections to eliminate competition, divert tax revenue directly into your businesses and eliminate any responsibility you should have? Do a Nazi salute for the whole world to see, and watch the propagandized twist themselves into whatever shape pretzel you ask them to.
jquery 10 minutes ago | parent
jnovek 1 hour ago | parent
zzzeek 1 hour ago | parent
I guess you can pretend Liz Warren, Ron Wyden, Patty Murray, dozens of house reps and thousands of Democratic legisltators in statehouses and towns around the country don't exist and just vote for the "party that lowered my taxes" again , right?
jnovek 1 hour ago | parent
dmoose 59 minutes ago | parent
cucumber3732842 1 hour ago | parent
jonnat 1 hour ago | parent
sneurlax 1 hour ago | parent
SmirkingRevenge 58 minutes ago | parent
The internet era has brought about the rise of small dollar donors making an outsized impact (for better or worse - it's not always a good thing)
This has given rise to more forms of populism (left and right, benign and toxic)
In any case, it does provide some counter weight to large donor class.
Money tends to have diminishing returns past a certain point, when it comes to elections.
And I think people underestimate what dopes many large donors are - that just get milked by the party people pumping them full of sweet talk and don't really get much in return
cucumber3732842 41 minutes ago | parent
They also see it like an insurance payment. Kick some amount to both sides in the hope that they leave you alone.
lotsofpulp 33 minutes ago | parent
He’s basically proof of the power of the common man’s vote in the US.
jnovek 1 hour ago | parent
I’m voting against the face eating leopard party every time. I’m not voting for someone. I would like very much to be voting for someone instead of against someone.
belorn 1 hour ago | parent
N_Lens 42 minutes ago | parent
mancerayder 1 hour ago | parent
This lobbying means that the politicians might be elected by "us" but they work for "them" - the "lobbyists."
Does this answer your question sufficiently?
rtkwe 1 hour ago | parent
greeneggs 1 hour ago | parent
catlikesshrimp 1 hour ago | parent
GJim 1 hour ago | parent
Because of FUD spread about data protection laws… such as the GDPR?
ajross 1 hour ago | parent
You can argue the warrant was poorly justified (and I'd agree!), but I don't see a plausible world where "ISPs aren't allowed to do connection analysis on their own networks" is going to help anyone. Well, anyone except spammers. They'd love that.
everdrive 44 minutes ago | parent
brightball 47 minutes ago | parent
Headline makes it seem like ICE just did this in a vacuum.
znpy 46 minutes ago | parent
altcognito 44 minutes ago | parent
mrbombastic 43 minutes ago | parent
Someone1234 38 minutes ago | parent
Schiendelman 16 minutes ago | parent
Homeland Security finally got one in 2003.
The Homeland Security Act of 2002 also let those offices start having their own statutory powers and carry firearms without needing to be deputized by the US Marshals Service.
evan_ 7 minutes ago | parent
jvanderbot 33 minutes ago | parent
As a MN'n, I have my own opinions about the escalatory tactics of protestors (the marches were awesome, but many of the follow/callout patrols seemed designed to get people killed), and the predictable response of ICE. All while I strongly oppose gov surveillance and tracking like this.
Starman_Jones 33 minutes ago | parent
brightball 22 minutes ago | parent
If people started doing that to UPS delivery trucks I would expect UPS to do everything in their power to protect their staff.
Starman_Jones 11 minutes ago | parent
boston_clone 28 minutes ago | parent
One might even go a step further and say people are obligated to do so when the government repeatedly abuses its power to intimidate and violently affect the lives of people without due process or cause.
specked-citrus 28 minutes ago | parent
close04 27 minutes ago | parent
The headline makes it look like they run "One of the Largest Anti-Left Surveillance Ops in US History". The only way the trigger matters is if the response to that trigger is justified. These justifications, once you consider them valid, just trigger a vicious cycle. Most of the people are being put under surveillance by this "massive anti US citizen campaign" with no reasonable suspicion, no judicial supervision, by an agency which should have no business doing any of this. Just another flavor of authoritarianism. Is it justified for them to escalate? If not then your argument is bunk. The title says what it really is and justifying the extremist actions of one side only betrays a bias.
serioussecurity 6 minutes ago | parent
cyberjerkXX 2 hours ago | parent
kevmo 2 hours ago | parent
rc_kas 2 hours ago | parent
Back when it was just nerds on the internet, and powerfull people with agenda's had not infiltrated everything
ballmerpoint 2 hours ago | parent
fedpost 2 hours ago | parent
giancarlostoro 2 hours ago | parent
It's a thankless thing, but we need more people who are willing to just do it. Now I know some of you will point out that Kim Dotcom was hosting movies, shows, music, etc. That's not my point, look at HOW they took him down, and WHEN. They were trying to pass SOPA, claiming it would help them take down people like Kim Dotcom "because they couldn't" so what they did to Kim Dotcom was questionable from a legal perspective...
Sigh. I really do miss the internet before the 2nd and 3rd waves of "Eternal September" (Facebook then Smartphones) it was much nicer.
teddyh 26 minutes ago | parent
empath75 2 hours ago | parent
m0llusk 2 hours ago | parent
bix6 2 hours ago | parent
darkarmani 2 hours ago | parent
When they are arresting news anchors for reporting on ICE's activities, it should be obvious that Trump and his administration is fascist-curious.
adjejmxbdjdn 2 hours ago | parent
ChrisGreenHeur 2 hours ago | parent
nyc_data_geek 2 hours ago | parent
Jensson 2 hours ago | parent
You can argue about how they should go about deporting people, but them deporting everyone even those without a criminal record is their intended purpose.
Forgeties79 1 hour ago | parent
Should they go around and do that too?
Jensson 1 hour ago | parent
Anyone who don't say yes just wants a police state, the reason your American police is so dangerous and powerful is because they have these choices and can arrest you for a lot of things that people don't normally get arrested for.
So yes, they should do that. That you think they shouldn't is exactly why the American police is so horrible.
tshaddox 1 hour ago | parent
This is not in fact the stated mission of the agency.
Jensson 1 hour ago | parent
bix6 1 hour ago | parent
Jensson 1 hour ago | parent
unethical_ban 1 hour ago | parent
Jensson 53 minutes ago | parent
However what ICE gets to decide is what cases to prioritize, they don't get to decide who to exonerate but their limited resources means that they prioritize those who are bigger dangers. Still if they had infinite resources they would take everyone.
bix6 29 minutes ago | parent
boston_clone 17 minutes ago | parent
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2025/09/10/immi...
SmirkingRevenge 1 hour ago | parent
Who must be deported is mostly left up to discretion.
And since deportation is very expensive and drastic - an option of last resort - it's usually better for all involved to come up with other arrangements.
Most prior presidents had good sense enough to understand that mass deportation is a major foot-gun, politically and economically. And kind of morally monstrous.
For better or worse, the arrangement that's been informally agreed upon is to let most of the undocumented who have been here a long time, remain (dreamers, etc).
Sadly, that left them all vulnerable to the discretion of a capricious criminal wanna-be dictator like Trump.
Jensson 1 hour ago | parent
If they recognized this is an issue just add a way for upstanding undocumented immigrants to become documented immigrants, problem solved.
Instead they preserved the status quo where they can use ICE to hammer their enemies, that is a very bad thing. ICE taking everyone is the only way, it robs it of its power.
SmirkingRevenge 38 minutes ago | parent
Only Trump has really done this. ICE was created in the wake of 9/11 and didn't exist before then.
Before Trump we had Bush and Obama presiding over ICE - the 9/11 aftermath heavily influenced both of their administration policies on deportation (in both cases, pretty hardline).
Before ICE, deportation was mostly a matter for lawyers and judges, and not full of smashed car windows and gun fights, by chuds that make mall-cops look like Marines by comparison.
The weaponization of ICE against political enemies is new and dangerous
We can certainly blame congress for not doing reform, but also it's really hard. The immigration system is probably the most complex legal and bureaucratic regime in the country
unethical_ban 1 hour ago | parent
https://wannabewonk.com/how-are-they-different/
>Many of the discussions above are based on a central fact: Undocumented immigrants are here, now, in large numbers. In a world where America had zero undocumented residents, arguments could be made to be less tolerant of their presence, to discourage them from being here. It wouldn't be patently inhumane to deport someone if they have been here weeks, rather than years or decades.
A serious, ethical attempt to reduce illegal immigration would be to set a path to legal, documented residence for all current non-felon aliens, and begin "undocumented" enforcement with a clean slate.
Jensson 1 hour ago | parent
So the problem here isn't ICE, it is Trump and his politics. ICE following the law and doing their job is the wrong target.
unethical_ban 55 minutes ago | parent
IMO, Republicans like the status quo because the business class enjoys exploiting workers they can threaten with deportation, and they enjoy it as a rallying cry for their voting base.
Izikiel43 19 minutes ago | parent
Why follow the rules then? If it happens once, it can happen again, it would have the opposite effect.
tootie 13 minutes ago | parent
jayd16 9 minutes ago | parent
Forgeties79 1 hour ago | parent
shevy-java 1 hour ago | parent
See the execution of Renée Good. Remember how the ICE terrorist deliberately stepped before her car, to try to make a defensive claim aka "had to shoot her to stop her". Meanwhile his other two terrorist buddies were standing NEXT to the car, thus invalidating the lie quite logically. After all, how did two other ICE terrorists manage to not get into that situation that the murderer chose to employ here? So there is a lack of consistency among ICE terrorists.
Roark66 53 minutes ago | parent
But in US human life is not worth much.
nbajka 1 hour ago | parent
Arkhaine_kupo 1 hour ago | parent
Lets ignore that the richest man on the planet has a credible record of being n immigrant who stayed in the US illegaly, and has open criminal record probes in at least 2 countries. But I guess a 350 million donation to the standing goverment in campaign donations might make it difficult for ICE to find him
skulk 1 hour ago | parent
The idea that illegal immigrants need to be deported (and not have a path to legal residency) comes from a view that those jobs should go to American citizens (which will bring economic pain that is intolerable) or from a view that browns don't belong in the USA.
MisterMunchkin 1 hour ago | parent
jahnu 1 hour ago | parent
gustavus 1 hour ago | parent
https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/come-on-obviously-the-purpo...
ang_cire 49 minutes ago | parent
It's not about the outcomes of something taken in isolation, it's about the actions taken in order to achieve it, and when those actions continually run counter to achieving the stated goal.
So the response article examples are missing half the context needed to make it's claim:
* The hospital only curing 2/3 of cancer patients being simply a failure to achieve it's true mission of 3/3 cures would rely on knowing it is taking action in earnest to actually cure all patients.
While we can assume that for an obvious hypothetical, if for instance a whistleblower leaked evidence showing that 1/3 patients were being intentionally withheld care, the hospital responded it was an accident, but then evidence came out proving they still did this, then POSIWID would apply.
In a real-world, non-hypothetical example:
ICE keeps deporting American citizens. Every time this gets reported on, they insist it's a mistake. They keep doing it.
Insisting that adverse behavior is an accident/mistake/incidental, but then continuing to do the bad thing yourself, is the purpose of the axiom.
extraextra 7 minutes ago | parent
"Insisting that adverse behavior is an accident/mistake/incidental, but then continuing to do the bad thing yourself, is the purpose of the axiom."
So, in your (faulty) interpretation, the axiom applies perfectly to the fact that cars kill pedestrians
gustavus 6 minutes ago | parent
https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/highlights-from-the-comment...
Zak 1 hour ago | parent
threetonesun 1 hour ago | parent
marknutter 5 minutes ago | parent
SmirkingRevenge 1 hour ago | parent
This is why advocates have always tried to reframe things from "illegal" to "undocumented"
It's actually not a crime to overstay a visa or to be here without one. It's nothing.
The act of crossing the border "illegally" is a misdemeanor (the first time) on the level of something like a speeding ticket - but its still not illegal to be here even if you crossed "illegally"
aniviacat 55 minutes ago | parent
If you want more people to immigrate you should make the legal pathways more accessible, not tolerate the illegal ones.
skulk 39 minutes ago | parent
How do you do this in a way that preserves the leverage that business owners have over undocumented workers? Those people form a pretty strong coalition with the people who think all immigration is bad for ... other reasons, so this is pretty much a non-starter politically.
the_gastropod 31 minutes ago | parent
zenithirl 11 minutes ago | parent
soon_to_be_sb 8 minutes ago | parent
soon_to_be_sb 43 minutes ago | parent
If it is not a crime, then what is it?
cucumber3732842 35 minutes ago | parent
If you're not rich enough to lawyer up, spend five figures fighting through the kangaroo administrative process and then another five sticking it to them in real court a civil infraction is actually worse in a lot of ways because those pesky 4th through 8th amendments don't really protect you all that much. There's a lot of judicial precedent from the past 100yr that basically waters down your rights when a bureaucrat is after you rather than the cops.
soon_to_be_sb 19 minutes ago | parent
marknutter 3 minutes ago | parent
grahamburger 1 hour ago | parent
At some level, this is because the optics still matter. Most of us don't want to see brown families rounded up and tossed over the nearest southern border.
Ralfp 39 minutes ago | parent
the_gastropod 37 minutes ago | parent
The fact is, the huge majority of undocumented folks came into the country legally. Most overstayed their visas, had the laws changed out from under them, lost their employment, etc. In other words, they’re virtually all tax-paying, productive members of society who want to be here. It’s a win-win for them to remain.
This obsession with “the law!” only ever really seems related to immigration law. Wonder why…
RC_ITR 19 minutes ago | parent
Our current administration ran on a platform of paying criminals who were convicted of breaking laws.
SpicyLemonZest 1 hour ago | parent
assbuttbuttass 1 hour ago | parent
IAmBroom 1 hour ago | parent
Also, you are shifting the blame for immigrants getting arrested to the owners. That means the employees are actually blameless: they are caught between seldom-enforced laws and a need to thrive and feed their families.
SpicyLemonZest 1 hour ago | parent
buildbot 1 hour ago | parent
georgemcbay 50 minutes ago | parent
Yeah, it boils down to the same reasons why many corporations want an incredibly broken H-1B system at the higher end: it provides an exploitable pool of workers.
And currently in both cases you can find a lot of consternation from the people who benefitted from how things worked prior to Trump because the administration is making significant changes to the status quo. The business owners loved the rhetoric about fixing immigration, but assumed the broken systems that gave them the benefits of exploiting those worker pools would largely be maintained as they had been.
And to be explicitly clear with my opinion, neither side of this conflict (businesses that want to maintain the broken-but-works-for-us system, or the Trump administration) are the good guys here. The businesses want to keep exploiting migrant workers unimpeded and the administration wants to be maximally racist more than it wants to help businesses keep exploiting.
parineum 1 hour ago | parent
Or, you know, from the idea that they are doing something illegal and the job of law enforcement is to enforce laws.
IAmBroom 1 hour ago | parent
parineum 1 hour ago | parent
ang_cire 42 minutes ago | parent
parineum 39 minutes ago | parent
ang_cire 37 minutes ago | parent
(And the people who sign onto an organization like ICE knowing exactly what they do and why.)
method_capital 1 hour ago | parent
mjmsmith 42 minutes ago | parent
method_capital 19 minutes ago | parent
"The idea that illegal immigrants need to be deported comes from a view that those jobs should go to American citizens or from a view that browns don't belong in the USA"
Calling everybody a racist who wants laws enforced is weak. Immigration laws are made necessary by a welfare state I happen to not support. The conversation has literally nothing to with race or racism. We're talking about the laws that govern the country and whether we should enforce or ignore them.
What do you think? Do you have any profound insight or ideas to share?
skulk 42 minutes ago | parent
SmirkingRevenge 53 minutes ago | parent
It only becomes a crime once you're formally deported
dudul 1 hour ago | parent
Or they could have "moved back south" like you said, and stayed there.
Since this "program" was ended it sounds like it should be as simple as "no papers? gotta go".
Funny how democrats always care so much about "the law" and "due process" until it relates to immigration.
esikich 1 hour ago | parent
lmz 1 hour ago | parent
dudul 1 hour ago | parent
Is this one of these stupid "yeah 300 years ago this used to be on that land!!!" argument? Buddy, if so, stop living in the past. Territories are conquered all the time everywhere throughout the entirety of History.
Plus, this has nothing to do with current immigration laws.
esikich 1 hour ago | parent
dudul 1 hour ago | parent
How does it apply to the specific case mentioned in the parent? How does it relate to illegal workers who somehow are now "trapped" in the US because some weird fringe program was stopped?
esikich 4 minutes ago | parent
rtkwe 1 hour ago | parent
Funny how often the very problems republicans are so adamant about are caused by their own policies. Before the change the population flowed seasonally and had little reason to stay long term. Suddenly it's an issue but by shutting off the flow without a way to do it legally it screwed both parties. Farms still need the crops picked and the work is difficult and the pay is only good relative to the opportunities in other countries so there's no replacement domestic workforce.
modo_mario 40 minutes ago | parent
"for that wage."
This is wage suppresion you're supporting.
dudul 35 minutes ago | parent
carlosjobim 1 hour ago | parent
Um?
slashdev 1 hour ago | parent
A nation is literally defined as an entity that has control over its borders. If it permits just anyone to enter or exit, it is technically not a nation anymore.
I’m all for changing immigration laws, giving more people a legal route to becoming temporary workers, students, residents, and citizens. But being choosy about who gets in and who does not. Attract the best and brightest to lift your country up, not freeloaders and criminals that tear it down. Look at the riots in Europe right now - and learn from their mistakes. Immigration is good but there have to be limits, laws, and control over borders.
MSFT_Edging 58 minutes ago | parent
Given the high level of criminality of the current administration, are you a racist, a gullible mark, or an HSI agent handed a keyboard?
To folks reading along at home, please remember there are no serious debates with fascists, fascist adjacent, or fascist apologists. The ideology requires a foundation based on racial stereotypes and scapegoatism. The "real problem" to these people will always be the weakest and most ill equipped to fight back.
There will be fascist vanguards attempting to draw you into circular logic. Just remember, the scapegoats never have the power to direct the path of society. It's all slight of hand. They don't care about criminals, freeloaders, etc as it would require them to look inward at their own communities as well. They do not do that, as they do not actually care.
zenithirl 6 minutes ago | parent
alyeska2 53 minutes ago | parent
I can cross a dozen borders in the EU without so much as slowing down. I can sell my house in one US State and move to another without asking for permission.
It wasn't until World War 1 that passports for international travel became common in Europe.
Don't let the xenophobic posts on social media trick you. Immigrants in the US are factually less likely to commit crimes than born Americans, look it up. They've just repeated the lie so many times that people have accepted it.
tempfile 48 minutes ago | parent
Big words considering the rest of your comment.
> If it permits just anyone to enter or exit, it is technically not a nation anymore.
You cannot "permit" something you do not control, so this is a contradiction in terms. If you mean that the constraints put on the US by itself to not police immigration in overly violent or cruel ways mean that it does not control immigration, then by the same logic the 4th amendment implies that there is no rule of law in the US (since certain criminals can't be convicted due to bad actions by the state).
> But being choosy about who gets in and who does not.
Nobody really denies this. The question is how violent or cruel you can be in the exercise of this choosiness.
> Look at the riots in Europe right now
The riots in Europe are not primarily about immigration. Get off twitter.
modo_mario 37 minutes ago | parent
A state*
A nation is a people with common identity, culture, language, history, etc (see first nations, stateless nations, etc)
aniviacat 1 hour ago | parent
Doesn't the qualification of them being illegal immigrants imply that they aren't going through the legal processes immigrants should go through to get work and residency?
If illegal immigrants gain the same rights as legal immigrants, why even bother following the rules?
cmorgan31 43 minutes ago | parent
skulk 37 minutes ago | parent
The purpose of a system is what it does.
gadders 11 minutes ago | parent
mrits 1 hour ago | parent
TheOtherHobbes 47 minutes ago | parent
Th policy has just been struck down, but we'll see whether that makes a practical difference.
IME ICE are simply a death squad. Immigration is a pretext.
The goal is political terror against regime opponents, not a rational and proportional response to people without paperwork.
tyrust 8 minutes ago | parent
ExoticPearTree 45 minutes ago | parent
Are you serious? The choice for them was to go back to their home countries.
Izikiel43 21 minutes ago | parent
gadders 12 minutes ago | parent
Isn't that obvious? I mean I can't imagine why this would be even remotely controversial.
innagadadavida 8 minutes ago | parent
micromacrofoot 26 minutes ago | parent
So if someone lives here, works and pays taxes, and has not been convicted of any other crime... why would we want to deport them? By some measures migrants pay more taxes and commit less crime than natural born citizens. We should just get them paperwork and let them continue being good citizens while we also reform the process that resulted in them being here illegally in the first place.
Why should we spend billions of dollars on this problem that in many ways, on paper, is beneficial?
specked-citrus 25 minutes ago | parent
gadders 13 minutes ago | parent
paimapi 1 hour ago | parent
https://digitalcommons.wcl.american.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?...
>Americans’ liberties have been trammeled in a variety of different ways. Under the guise of stopping terrorism, law enforcement officials and government leaders have now been given the right to conduct searches of homes and offices without prior notice, use roving wiretaps to listen in on telephone conversations, and monitor computers and e-mail messages, even to the degree of eavesdropping on attorney/client conversations.
>Conceivably, these extensions of the definition of “terrorist” could bring within their sweep diverse domestic political groups, which have been accused of acts of intimidation or property damage such as Act Up, People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA), Operation Rescue, and the Vieques demonstrators.
It should have been stopped before it grew into the leviathan it is now but the general consensus by the politicos of the time was that this was just histrionic left/libertarian worry, and that something like that could never happen in the USA, we were too just, too democracy-loving.
iovrthoughtthis 1 hour ago | parent
kpirate 44 minutes ago | parent
kelnos 42 minutes ago | parent
Someone1234 32 minutes ago | parent
CBP's job is to protect the border and stop drug and people trafficking entering, whereas ICE's original purpose was to enforce immigration law within the US.
While not "everything" ICE was tasked with was immigration, that was their bread and butter. Where the vast majority of their workforce and spend went.
ceejayoz 6 minutes ago | parent
uxp100 2 hours ago | parent
Russ Feingold was the only Senator to vote against the Patriot act. I really do think about that a lot.
bilbo0s 2 hours ago | parent
In the US we claim we want freedom, privacy, and all that good stuff. But where the rubber meets the road, it becomes pretty clear that we don't.
tengbretson 1 hour ago | parent
fedpost 1 hour ago | parent
shevy-java 1 hour ago | parent
I would not call it "Anti-Left" though. Fascism should never be confused with having an agenda other than fascism itself, be it Trump's corporate fascism or Putin's neo-Stalinism. All pocket away wealth and power to their cronies.
nomilk 1 hour ago | parent
Although this default expectation is pessimistic (and some countries might not be nearly that harsh), I don't think it's wildly inaccurate. What I don't understand is why it's common for intelligent people (seemingly only in the US) to consider violations of visa/immigration conditions acceptable and ICE bad guys for enforcing the law?
watwut 1 hour ago | parent
Also, in normal countries, if you break the law, arbitrary abuse is still not the expected behavior of the police.
kccqzy 1 hour ago | parent
As for why ICE are the bad guys, well that’s a completely different question. The way they enforce laws is thug-like and have resulted in multiple innocent deaths. Regardless of if it is ICE or a normal police department if enforcing laws causes death you bet there will be a large pushback.
lostdog 1 hour ago | parent
kccqzy 58 minutes ago | parent
nomilk 36 minutes ago | parent
AlotOfReading 25 minutes ago | parent
functionmouse 1 hour ago | parent
Centigonal 1 hour ago | parent
fisherjeff 1 hour ago | parent
maeln 1 hour ago | parent
But even never minding that, you could say a lot of things : The U.S.A is a country literally built by immigrants. The native-american are a minority in their own land. So is it surprising that a lot of people in an immigrant country support immigrant ? Then, there is the dirty economic secret that illegal immigration fill the low-wages jobs that citizen don't have to lower themselves too. A lot of ties, rule of law, etc. Of all country, it is weird that the U.S is turning anti-immigration.
joshblack1982 1 hour ago | parent
Also on America being built by immigrants, who cares? Honestly, that really doesn't matter. Just because America was founded by immigrants then doesn't mean we need to let in unlimited immigrants now.
nomilk 1 hour ago | parent
jnovek 1 hour ago | parent
People have died in our detention centers due to unsanitary conditions.
They arrested a five year old and sent him to one of these detention centers without his parents.
They’ve murdered multiple peaceful protestors in the street.
I favor responsible immigration enforcement. This is not that.
nomilk 1 hour ago | parent
To play devil's advocate for the heavy handedness and harsh detentions, Australia had a problem with 'boat people' in the 2000's, and subsequently built a massive detention centre on a island, meaning those intercepted never made mainland. The heat was oppressive, processing times were usually measured in years, and illegal arrivals were mostly sent back to where they came from.
But.. the illegal arrivals basically entirely stopped. So although it was harsh (including on a lot of legitimate refugees), it did force entry via legal channels (of which Australia has historically had many).
andrewflnr 57 minutes ago | parent
titzer 53 minutes ago | parent
That said, a lot of US's immigration problems has been neglect to enforce immigration law, deliberate sabotaging of legislation throughout the years, and multiple broad amnesty decrees that basically broke the system. The system is broken by design and almost tailor-made to foment anti-immigrant sentiment that has sparked this new, ugly phase driven by unaccountable maniacs.
jnovek 30 minutes ago | parent
The other issue is intent.
I support reasonable immigration enforcement for practical reasons like added strain on public facilities like social programs. That’s rational.
Our 2024 Trump-aligned candidates ran on more of a xenophobia-centric platform. Xenophobia is irrational and unpredictable reasoning for immigration enforcement.
titzer 57 minutes ago | parent
Unapologetically, then tried to frame each of these people as radicals who deserved it. And there is no investigation, no punishment, no accountability.
It is the utter shamelessness and craven dodging of responsibility that is criminal.
And the American media and American populace do not hold their feet to the fire.
There is no line they won't eventually cross, and the slide into the abyss is accelerating.
marcosdumay 1 hour ago | parent
Detention in particular is a violation of human rights, with an exception to strictly for the time it takes for the next flight to take off.
jonathanstrange 1 hour ago | parent
richee 1 hour ago | parent
You should look up the two guys who viciously attacked armed police officers in Manchester Airport in the UK, all on video. Incredibly they were out almost immediately, police officers were up for firing and the trial dragged out for months ending in a pretty lenient sentence. In that case the new UK "two tier" justice kicked in where thanks to crazy far-left thinking, there is now consideration of race in whether something was illegal and what the punishment should be.
Without a doubt this direction will be the downfall of the west. Which is probably the idea from those financing all this "grass roots" protesting and law breaking.
woodpanel 1 hour ago | parent
Today being anti-h1b is deemed racist although no other than Bernie Sanders was outspoken against it for decades until very recently. Never mind.
Never mind that some people deemed anti Covid measures racist (ie hugged people in Chinatown for PR stunts, or licking handles in public transit for online clout) and unscientific (masks are bad) until Trump did a 180 (ie. masks are mandatory now). Or how many ppl said they would never have the „trump-vax“ injected and yet after Trump lost the election 2019 were gluttonous about the restrictions to be implemented against the unvaxxed.
mywittyname 1 hour ago | parent
Also, any of this can happen to you even if you're a lawful citizen.
The situation in the USA is dire and it's going to get, much, much worse.
datsci_est_2015 46 minutes ago | parent
nomilk 40 minutes ago | parent
That's sometimes reasonable - e.g. the apocryphal loaf of bread being stolen to feed a starving family. But it's not a universal defence. And not all illegals are poor in the first place.
datsci_est_2015 26 minutes ago | parent
If you make it illegal to sleep on the street at night (by extension, sleeping anywhere that isn’t a legal residence), you are de facto making it illegal to be homeless.
That a law applies to everyone is not a “universal defence” in its fairness.
hyperpape 21 minutes ago | parent
This is downstream of the fact that the US government just doesn't work well. Problems fester, and are unsolved. Immigration policy hasn't made sense for longer than I've been alive (and I'm 40+).
Imagine that you find that the water supply in your town was built illegally, because the former mayors prohibited the building that was necessary. You may think that is a travesty, you may want to enforce the law strictly in the future, and force the issue, rather than working around it. But what you will not do is tear up the water system and leave the city without water.
gunsle 11 minutes ago | parent
deadbabe 1 hour ago | parent
gherkinnn 1 hour ago | parent
heyitsmedotjayb 1 hour ago | parent
nullocator 1 hour ago | parent
zanecodes 57 minutes ago | parent
deepsquirrelnet 41 minutes ago | parent
cdrnsf 10 minutes ago | parent
cyberjerkXX 6 minutes ago | parent
Zigurd 1 hour ago | parent
dathinab 1 hour ago | parent
you are centrist and have a good point to complain about not liked by them, sorry you are now left
you are conservative right, but have very different views about separation of religion and state, sorry that is woke you are now left, too
you care bout civil right of all US citizens and especially want to better protect workers against abuse, oh dang I fear that is "left extremist" maybe even "domestic terrorist"
/s
labrador 1 hour ago | parent
The difference is Nixon had real domestic enemies to worry about: The Weather Underground were bombing buildings, heiress Patty Hearst was kidnapped by the "Symbionese Liberation Army", the Black Panthers were making demands which conservative America found frightening, mass protests were going on about the war in Vietnam on college campuses which resulted in the deaths at Kent State. Nixon believed these protests were driven by Chinese and Soviet influence to support North Vietnam in the war. The CIA’s Operation CHAOS spent years looking for foreign control of the antiwar movement and reported back that there wasn’t any.
What domestic enemies does Trump have? Antifa is a philosophy, not an organization. Black Lives Matter protests were his last administration. There have been a few lone wolf attacks like the Dallas ICE sniper, but the domestic threat is no here near what Nixon faced.
Under the Trump's White House directive NSPM-7, which defines a potential domestic terrorist as anyone expressing “anti-Christian, anti-capitalist, or anti-American” views, DHS launched an operation to find a “network of conspirators” against ICE.
The surveillance op in the Wired article targeted labor unions, a climate change group and socialist collectives — the SEIU had three years of wire transfers investigated, and the AFL-CIO, DSA and Showing Up for Racial Justice were also investigated. That’s the mismatch: a 1970s-scale dragnet for a threat that isn’t 1970s-scale.
Trump appears to be grabbing power for the sake of grabbing power.
shrubby 1 hour ago | parent
Read The Nerd Reich.
igleria 1 hour ago | parent
rnd0 1 hour ago | parent
austin-cheney 1 hour ago | parent
The two problems of surveillance are misuse by government for political reasons in opposition to constitutional rights and misuse of surveillance by non-government agents who are not held to the same high ethical standards/limitations. These two concerns of misuse will continue their malicious growth until they are challenged regardless of the increases to surveillance technology.
unethical_ban 1 hour ago | parent
Society and its laws have been built around the central idea of selective enforcement. We have all manor of laws on the books that are created with the assumption that they cannot or will not be enforced perfectly.
The spy powers of our governments have always been assumed to be limited - that if they choose to invasively track a person, it would take limited human resources and that would naturally limit their capacity (in theory) to those who the government truly deems a concern.
Omnipresent surveillance that can record and analyze and correlate every citizen's movements and behavior at all times is inherently totalitarian and anti-freedom. It is a power the government should not be allowed to have, period.
austin-cheney 54 minutes ago | parent
The forth amendment is not modified merely because the technology evolves. This is the kind of thing defense lawyers look for. To permit evolving technology to be used as evidence in violation of privacy generally requires new law.
unethical_ban 5 minutes ago | parent
My point is that government cannot be trusted to have this kind of power because it will at some point be turned against the population when dissent threatens the people holding power; it is inevitable. The least we should do is make laws strictly controlling access and purpose of access to such tools for criminal investigations, but I don't think that's enough to stop abuse and civil oppression.
tavavex 1 hour ago | parent
That world can't exist. Mass surveillance IS power, and power corrupts. Any situation where the use of surveillance is reasonable is a temporary transitory state, the final end is always the same - repressions and authoritarianism. The technology is a siren song, it's too attractive for bad actors so they will try to get it in somehow. And once your system of checks and balances springs a leak somewhere, it sets in motion its eventual undoing, because there's almost no stopping it once it's relied upon somewhere.
austin-cheney 1 hour ago | parent
tavavex 27 minutes ago | parent
cogman10 43 minutes ago | parent
The very big problem I have here is that ICE is not the agency that should be doing this sort of surveillance. Their role is immigration control, not leftist or citizen control. If they suspect there's some dangerous criminal problem going on, then that's the role of the FBI to investigate.
The specific reason they are doing this is because ICE doesn't use traditional courts for most of their actions. As such, they are fairly unaccountable.
ICE also isn't even technically criminal law enforcement, they are civil law enforcers. They are supposed to involve local law enforcement or federal law enforcement when going after criminals. Their roles are, instead, to dish out tickets. The fact that they've been militarized is a major problem. CBP is the only agency under the DHS that is supposed to have any sort of military equipment and general detention powers and those are only supposed to be exerted at a border.
austin-cheney 11 minutes ago | parent
techteach00 1 hour ago | parent
ICE should not be running surveillance Ops on Left activists or immigrants and the FBI should not run surveillance Ops on Right activists, J6 rioters.
The tools violate all of our rights full stop. Please don't support this garbage again when Dems sweep into power, trying to debank ppl for X tweets etc.
elmer2 1 hour ago | parent
Will this stop? or will we see the same thing again when a Democrat becomes president (with no articles about it and nobody mentioning it)?
beaviskhan 1 hour ago | parent
monster_truck 1 hour ago | parent
ajross 1 hour ago | parent
aristofun 57 minutes ago | parent
DivingForGold 55 minutes ago | parent
goodpoint 54 minutes ago | parent
cogman10 41 minutes ago | parent
Put them back under the DoJ and have the FBI handle criminals, not ICE. Bring back the INS.
* Misspelled initially
Kapura 35 minutes ago | parent
kennywinker 26 minutes ago | parent
cogman10 20 minutes ago | parent
Permik 9 minutes ago | parent
ProllyInfamous 39 minutes ago | parent
One person has appointed every single judge to the current US FISA Courts (whose jurisdiction includes domestic surveillance rubberstamping).
You can thank the concessions of Bush v. Gore (2000) for giving this executive-level privilege to the hoNoRAblE [SCOTUS Chief] Judge Roberts.
In 2026, this orchestrated puppetteering probably doesn't even matter anymore..?
writtenone 24 minutes ago | parent
onetimeusename 23 minutes ago | parent
The Minnesota 15 case is the clearest example yet of DHS pursuing the Trump administration’s efforts to crack down on what have long been upheld as First Amendment–protected activities
But did the Minnesota 15 commit actual crimes? There's lots of hyperbole "15 terabytes of data" but in the end it centers on investigations into the Minnesota 15 and doesn't answer this question. The Minnesota 15 are not accused of ordinary protest. The article gave no evidence that these people hadn't committed any crimes it just went on and on about investigative capabilities of HSI.Obstructing law enforcement is a crime even if you don't like law enforcement. I think it's a stretch to go from "Minnesota 15 investigated" to "ICE is a private police force used to suppress dissent". Also, there's no mention of the ~10 million people who entered illegally under Biden. Is it democratic to have open borders? I get the sense this writer believes deporting people is opposed to democracy.
maerF0x0 23 minutes ago | parent
Current regime targeting their enemies.
Potential next regime (democrats) threatening their enemies (like Musk).
Both need their hands slapped by the highest courts that any retaliation against constitutional rights is a violation of them.
hexator 10 minutes ago | parent
jayd16 4 minutes ago | parent
Reaching really hard to try to both-sides the narrative.
smith7018 4 minutes ago | parent
cdrnsf 13 minutes ago | parent
TaLiTr 10 minutes ago | parent
They're not even trying to pretend to not be evil.