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Pentagon grants DHS permission to test heat ray weapon for use at border

46 points bushwart 2 hours ago 39 comments

icegreentea2 1 hour ago | parent

The system in question is basically just a directed microwave emitter. It is designed to heat up the first ~0.5mm of your skin.

It's safety is basically completely a function of the operator. Since the beam will keep depositing energy (ie heating), if the beam is held on a target, it will incur more and more heating (and potentially harm).

In proper usage, safety is ensured through the combination of operator training, selection of proper settings, and induced compliance. If you have a shitty operator, risk of over exposure increases. The nature of this device means that it's not a barrier, it's a beam.

During earlier testing, they were able to induce second degree burns on a test subject due to incorrect power and duration settings.

pstuart 1 hour ago | parent

There's no way I'd trust this in the hands of anyone, especially those operating in the service of the current administration. They say they want to use it to "protect the border" but there are reports that they'd used it domestically already.

Considering the non-tolerance of public protest and the "promise" of non-lethality, I could imagine this becoming a regular tool in population control if things don't change.

danparsonson 1 hour ago | parent

...and one need only watch videos of "trained officers" hosing people with pepper spray to envision how that will turn out.

everdrive 1 hour ago | parent

Also try not to think about contact lenses, piercings, jewelry, pacemakers, etc.

busssard 55 minutes ago | parent

i wonder what would happen if i am wearing a layer of aluminum foil under my shirt...

bijowo1676 34 minutes ago | parent

put it into microwave, aluminum will spark and will burn like the thermite

footy 1 hour ago | parent

for certain types of tools (and I'd certainly class weapons as this type) you have to assume that a certain number of operators will be, as you put it, "shitty". Whether it's because they're having a bad day, are genuinely incompetent, are malicious, whatever the reason---some percentage of the operators will be using your tool in a way you'd discourage for PR reasons.

Maybe I am too cynical, but I don't think the people making these tools actually care about this either, not beyond the potential for bad publicity.

nonethewiser 31 minutes ago | parent

And as a potential border crosser, better to not risk it.

stvltvs 28 minutes ago | parent

Every individual has their own risk tradeoff calculation. People already risk death to cross the border, so it's not clear how much this would move the needle.

irishcoffee 23 minutes ago | parent

> People already risk death to cross the border

At what percentage would you say? 1%, 3%, 87%?

Does the country they are fleeing have no culpability? Why are they leaving?

hilariously 20 minutes ago | parent

A man runs out of a burning building. You shoot him. Dang, that building really should have had more culpability.

jayGlow 13 minutes ago | parent

I was not aware that Mexico or Canada were in a state that requires their citizens to flee.

stvltvs 6 minutes ago | parent

What are the chances that it's deployed at the Canadian border?

stvltvs 12 minutes ago | parent

Focusing on the specific death rate doesn't change that crossing the border is risky, and some people will take their chances with or without the heat ray. It's one more variable in the calculation.

Wikipedia is available if specific mortality rates matter. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migrant_deaths_along_the_Mexic...

hilariously 20 minutes ago | parent

Most people fleeing across the border have braved significantly worse, this is just another way to harm people we see as lesser for the accident of where they were born.

bijowo1676 59 minutes ago | parent

knowing the kind of people who sign up for ICE/CBP enforcement, I have no hope that a trained or decent operator will be behind this machine.

I expect a lot of severely traumatized people from this device

10111001 53 minutes ago | parent

> The system in question is basically just a directed microwave emitter. It is designed to heat up the first ~0.5mm of your skin.

So what happens when it's shot at someone's eyes?

icegreentea2 49 minutes ago | parent

The innate blink reflex is supposed to be enough to limit risk of damage: https://web.archive.org/web/20130216134111/http://jnlwp.defe... (go to page 14/28).

euroderf 23 minutes ago | parent

So if I can't keep my eyes closed (because of a riot situation, or friends in trouble) am I risking permanent eye damage, with no government responsibility for it, because some cop shouted something into a bullhorn that I couldn't make out ?

icegreentea2 4 minutes ago | parent

Possibly yes.

The device works through line of sight, so blocking line of sight from the emitter to your open eyes (for example, by looking away and shielding with your arms) may be helpful.

Testing indicates that test subjects reached their pain threshold in ~5 seconds (typically reacting within 3). Proper application of this device in a riot situation likely involves pulsed application, at sufficient standoff range (between targets and a barrier or your riot police/troops), precisely to reduce the risk of operators feeling that they need to dwell, with the standoff range providing enough buffer to allow operators to feel like they can illuminate, wait for initial reaction, shut off, and then read the full reaction.

In your general scenario, you can replace this weapon with any other riot control tool, and get basically the same shitty situation. Once the government/police/whatever have decided that you are in a riot/mob, then you're not going to be treated as an individual, you're going to be treated as an element of a threat. This is true of dudes with shields and batons, beanbags, water cannons, tear gas, horses, whatever.

realo 10 minutes ago | parent

It is "non-lethal"!

Be happy you are just blind for the rest of your life.

Such a shitty government you have today in the USA, it boggles the mind.

pull_my_finger 41 minutes ago | parent

> If you have a shitty operator, risk of over exposure increases.

Good thing border control isn't full of rejects and nonhackers from the military and real law enforcement \s

slowin 6 minutes ago | parent

> It is designed to heat up the first ~0.5mm of your skin.

Oh, is that all?

> US officials had also considered deploying the system during moments of domestic unrest, including at the end of President Donald Trump’s first term when protests erupted over the murder of George Floyd, according to a former US official familiar with those discussions.

This is for "the border" (because you know we should be able to torture people there), but really this will imperial boomerang back to US citizens in the blink of an eye.

srean 4 minutes ago | parent

> If you have a shitty operator

Well, we are talking about US border patrol folks. Trust me, they are the nicest guys around /s.

causesothere 1 hour ago | parent

This is a weapon that will be deployed primarily against their own citizens.

samudrijan 1 hour ago | parent

The “border” extends 100 miles in-land from the actual border and encompasses 2/3 of the US population. DHS needs to be dismantled stat.

10111001 50 minutes ago | parent

> The “border” extends 100 miles in-land from the actual border and encompasses 2/3 of the US population. DHS needs to be dismantled stat.

1. How do you get from your first sentence to your second sentence?

2. If you dismantle DHS, what do you propose to replace it with? Will your replacement lead to a landslide MAGA victory in the next election after it's implemented?

VCFundedGenYer 41 minutes ago | parent

You don't seem to be grasping the severity of the situation if all you care about is "what do you want as a replacement?"

gessha 30 minutes ago | parent

Re 2: There’s so many gov agencies with overlapping responsibilities that I’m actually surprised you ask this. You can totally close a number of them and still have a functioning government on paper. Reality might turn out different.

As per your second question, I have no answer. Dems are so dysfunctional it’s beyond parody.

kec 24 minutes ago | parent

DHS was founded in 2003, as was ICE. The country got along for 227 years without these organizations, they aren't some bedrock thing from time immemorial.

Recognizing that the current structure and mode of operation of these organizations is problematic and leading to bad outcomes also doesn't mean flipping to fully open borders with zero law enforcement as some imply every time this is brought up.

mcmcmc 17 minutes ago | parent

> DHS was founded in 2003, as was ICE. The country got along for 227 years without these organizations

Almost like something happened shortly before then that caused a seismic shift in our national security posture…

causesothere 7 minutes ago | parent

DHS is brand new, has caused horror and terror, and soaked up tons of funding that could go to literally anything else.

It doesn't need to exist. Keep the customs checks, keep the border crossing folks. Keep port inspections. Run ourselves like a normal country and like we did for hundreds of years.

Shit is just reactionary nonsense after 9-11.

nonethewiser 31 minutes ago | parent

At the border?

thunderfork 26 minutes ago | parent

Today, the border; tomorrow, hand-me-downs to every cop shop in the country

causesothere 3 minutes ago | parent

My sweet summer child. You know how LRADs are deployed against US civilians? You know how chemical munitions are deployed against US civilians? (Specifically munitions that are considered illegal to deploy in war, but are apparently acceptable to deploy by police?) How flashbang grenades launched from handheld launchers are deployed against US civilians? How about the military personnel carriers and MRAPs?

You think those didn't start as restricted to some theater of war?

Go read up on the 1033 program. Or the DHS Grant Program, the Justice Assistance Grant program, or the 1122 program.

footy 1 hour ago | parent

what the actual fuck.

edit: okay, first reaction, obviously not contributing to any conversation. This is barbaric and if I paid US taxes I'd be writing my government.

igleria 38 minutes ago | parent

Surely the border patrol will not use it to torture a trespasser?

jpmattia 18 minutes ago | parent

And suddenly, there was a market for body-sized Bragg reflectors in the microwave region.

stuaxo 16 minutes ago | parent

Sadistic