Yet another Hacker News

Epic Games Inc v Apple Inc

118 points Mayzie 2 hours ago 70 comments

oliyoung 2 hours ago | parent

Huge decision, maybe toughest Apple's seen yet.

deepsun 1 hour ago | parent

They will appeal.

ForOldHack 1 hour ago | parent

Where is my pop-corn?

ForOldHack 1 hour ago | parent

"Apple has lost major, high-profile appeals before the European Union courts in two primary landmark matters, while also winning an earlier round in one of them."

motionlessveloc 1 hour ago | parent

The Federal Court is already Australia's second-highest court. The only higher level is the High Court, and like the US Supreme Court, they're quite picky about what appeals they'll accept.

troupo 1 hour ago | parent

They will, but they've already been through this in the EU. They will take several years to drag this out through courts and "negotiations" until they comply so maliciously you'll need a new term for that.

josephg 1 hour ago | parent

> until they comply so maliciously you'll need a new term for that.

The ruling is pretty clear that malicious compliance won't be accepted. There's a whole section on all the things apple isn't allowed to do to get around this ruling, starting with this:

> the first respondent must not (including by procuring any act of any related corporation) prohibit, prevent or take any action (including by imposing a fee or condition) which is likely to hinder users of iOS devices from discovering, obtaining and updating iOS apps, including alternative app stores, via Alternative Distribution Channels, or from using iOS apps obtained in that way on iOS devices, or prohibit, prevent or take any action (including by imposing a fee or condition) which is likely to hinder app developers from distributing and updating such iOS apps to such users via Alternative Distribution Channels, ...

mikeyanderson1 1 hour ago | parent

This is a massive win for independent Ai.

I want to run so my agents have a local sandbox on device.

EA-3167 1 hour ago | parent

Truly a universal concern for 99.9% of people who buy an iPhone.

himata4113 1 hour ago | parent

nowhere they've said that this is a win for iPhone users.

MBCook 1 hour ago | parent

Does this grant any of that?

Gigachad 1 hour ago | parent

Nope. Apple already allows local AI model running in apps on the App Store.

isodev 1 hour ago | parent

That’s good news for people who enjoy the freedom of using the device they own in the way they want.

Having (alt store) presence in Australia, Brazil, EU and Japan is in fact more than enough for many indies - one can even begin to imagine ignoring the US as a region.

Gigachad 1 hour ago | parent

I’ve been thinking about open source replacements of proprietary companion apps. It’s easy enough to reverse engineer Bluetooth protocols now, but you can’t run these in websites. Putting stuff on the App Store is too expensive but sideloading could be viable.

isodev 59 minutes ago | parent

Side*note: I really hope we can move away from the term "sideloading" which makes it sound like we're doing something on the down low.

Installing something is a perfectly normal operation - it's the App Store that's the special case :).

dannyw 1 hour ago | parent

It’s also great news for app developers.

First, Apple does not follow the same rules they set for developers.

Second, Apple does not treat all developers equally. We have functionality we’re unable to offer to iOS users.

The same feature, including technical implementation mechanism, is available in Claude and Gemini. It’s unfair.

somerandom2407 50 minutes ago | parent

It's terrible news for anyone who has some responsibility for the security of environments in which these devices are used.

Right now we have a relatively high confidence that as long as the devices are not jailbroken and are kept up to date they are relatively secure.

What this change means for people like me is that either there is some capability to detect whether third-party app stores are in use on a device and we will set a policy that disallows anyone using such things from accessing company data/services, or we have to lock out the devices altogether.

dannyw 42 minutes ago | parent

The ruling doesn't ask Apple to get rid of app sandboxing. The ruling explicitly notes this:

> Moreover, because iOS apps are sandboxed, as implemented in other jurisdictions, apps available through alternative distribution will be sandboxed, which further strengthens security and reduces the likelihood that any app will compromise other apps [...]

magnio 40 minutes ago | parent

Uhm, disallowing third-party stores, sure, but you draw a line that allows a non-jailbroken and updated device to be able to access company data? How is the lack of third-party app stores gonna prevent someone from sending sensitive data through the Mail app or to iCloud? Shouldn't company devices be managed with MDM to begin with?

Telaneo 39 minutes ago | parent

Surely it's possible to treat phones the same way as computers in corporate settings? Normal users aren't usually allowed to install whatever they want on their work PC, so why their work phone?

bunderbunder 26 minutes ago | parent

I think they were talking about bring your own device.

Telaneo 23 minutes ago | parent

How many people bring their own laptop to work? (ignoring self-employed people and the like which this line of thinking really doesn't apply to) Phones should be treated the same way.

Personal devices shouldn't be used for work purposes to begin with. If work has security requirements regarding what phone and what condition it is in, they better be supplying their own phone to ensure those requirements are satisfied.

_thisdot 6 minutes ago | parent

Vast majority of the people don't have the need for a separate work phone. But they benefit from accessing their work email, Teams chat, calendar, etc. from their phones.

Telaneo 3 minutes ago | parent

If work wants to be picky about what devices can access those things, but still want their employees to do so, they should provide devices for that. If they don't, well, then the employees get to not do work during non-work hours.

isodev 39 minutes ago | parent

> It's terrible news for anyone who has some responsibility for the security of environments in which these devices are used.

On the contrary, it allows app and payment security to be better than what Apple offers.

anonymous908213 38 minutes ago | parent

"Billions of consumer phones must be locked down because our IT department is completely incompetent and incapable of providing locked down work devices"

pmontra 9 minutes ago | parent

Or your company buys phones for its employees and allows only those work phones on its networks. I understand that this is an extra cost and phones are maybe more expensive than some laptops good enough for working with Office.

infinite_spin 44 minutes ago | parent

> one can even begin to imagine ignoring the US as a region

As someone from that region, this is probably a good idea for all parties, right now. I'm not fond of our current trajectory, and the outside pressure to change isn't sounding unreasonable.

kelvinjps10 30 minutes ago | parent

But that is the region where most developers would want to target to get more revenue

dannyw 1 hour ago | parent

I feel incredibly proud do to be Australian right now.

I like how the court’s declarations are punchy, factual, and dare I say obvious. I’d suggest giving section 1 a read.

There’s going to be a million “what ifs”, from walled gardens to security to ‘you don’t have to use iOS’, but it’s blatantly obvious this is all about competition and money.

It’s anticompetitive, illegal, and the remedy is to cease these anticompetitive actions.

MBCook 1 hour ago | parent

So now that Tim Cook is gone will we see John Ternus actually apply some braincells to this?

They’re just going to keep losing. And every time they fight they make it worse. They had a chance to get off way easier years ago. They destroyed it by fighting tooth and nail.

I don’t want any of those features myself, I don’t think. Small chance at side-loading.

But everyone, even diehard Apple pundits, realized long ago this was a very stupid hill to die on.

troupo 1 hour ago | parent

EU got there first, and Apple sabotaged the entire process anyway. Look at the requirements for setting up and running an alt store that Apple imposes.

josephg 1 hour ago | parent

Read the ruling. It's clearly written with Apple's EU schenanagens in mind:

> 4. Subject to orders 12 and 13, the first respondent must not (including by procuring any act of any related corporation) prohibit, prevent or take any action (including by imposing a fee or condition) which is likely to hinder users of iOS devices from discovering, obtaining and updating iOS apps, including alternative app stores, via Alternative Distribution Channels, or from using iOS apps obtained in that way on iOS devices, or prohibit, prevent or take any action (including by imposing a fee or condition) which is likely to hinder app developers from distributing and updating such iOS apps to such users via Alternative Distribution Channels, including but not limited to: ..

Then it goes on to list all the ways Apple isn't allowed to quietly break 3rd party app stores - like, they can't make developers or users pay money to use them. They can't restrict which APIs are allowed to be used via 3rd party stores. They can't require that people who publish apps in the official store remove their apps from 3rd party stores. And so on.

troupo 1 hour ago | parent

Ooooh. This is good.

Unfortunately, I still expect Apple to invent new ways to circumvent that :( But really good on court's part.

chihuahua 40 minutes ago | parent

They could switch to a different mechanism for app stores every month. Force app stores to be rewritten every month to use a procedurally generated new API, developers have to re-apply every month, and users have to go through the laborious setup process every month. And every time, present it with a cheerful message: "To bring a childlike sense of wonder to our customers, today we launch the new improved 3rd party app store API"

mikestew 20 minutes ago | parent

Yes, because courts are made of stupid people who won’t see right through this. IANAL, but from what I read, “well, technically…” often does not amuse a judge.

mannyv 50 minutes ago | parent

Great, now iOS users can get crapware and malware just like android users. Freedom!

charcircuit 50 minutes ago | parent

This is disappointing to see. Apple has invested billions of dollars into building the iPhone and part of its business model is having a central App Store. Instead of trying to encourage other phone manufactures to compete, they are forcing there to be competition within Apple's own ecosystem they created. Apple built their hole platform which is why they are able to make choices on how it works.

It is punishing Apple for building too great of a product.

dbdr 36 minutes ago | parent

If Apple's business model requires preventing their users from using the device they bought as they want, and overcharging commissions on software built by third parties, their business model is wrong.

Telaneo 33 minutes ago | parent

/s ?

mrkpdl 14 minutes ago | parent

Apple seems to feel that way, but they’re wrong.

ulfw 45 minutes ago | parent

This is getting ridiculous by Apple.

Just do it worldwide. I go regularly between AU and HK and sorry but it'd be ridiculous half of functionality works in one but not the other

somerandom2407 43 minutes ago | parent

Just a warning to any publishers who might want to force me into an alternative app store - I will stop using your app long before I'll install another app store.

I have a reasonable amount of confidence in Apple's due diligence around vetting apps on the app store. I can't think of another major brand that I would trust on this matter.

chid 40 minutes ago | parent

Google/Epic?

phinnaeus 34 minutes ago | parent

Yeah those are at the bottom of the list of companies I would trust

Telaneo 36 minutes ago | parent

I'm sure the vast majority of app developers are very much uninterested in leaving Apple's App Store if they have any interest in capturing an audience of any size, unless they themselves are a giant corp and have a Fortnite or similar on their hands.

However, the looming threat of that being possible, and Apple not being able to block it from happening, will hopefully prevent Apple from making the App Store experience worse than it needs to be, both from the user's perspective, and the publisher's perspective.

isatty 34 minutes ago | parent

Same, but nonetheless, having more choice for whoever cares can’t be a bad thing.

Chances of my aging parents installing an alt store and getting duped are slim to none.

isodev 34 minutes ago | parent

> I will stop using your app long before I'll install another app store.

m'okay bye.

Seriously, what are you trying to accomplish by saying this? Do you think you or app developers have any leverage with Apple? A corp that's the size of several countries?

We need choices and alternative options.

abletonlive 27 minutes ago | parent

Android is right over there ->

Or hell, anybody from AU should really spin up a tech company or build a phone

isodev 24 minutes ago | parent

> Android is right over there

Where? Apple and Google are a cosy cartel engineered to never let you out.

abletonlive 22 minutes ago | parent

You sound so helpless as if apple and google are forcing you to buy their phones. Victim much?

MindSpunk 11 minutes ago | parent

Google and Apple aren't, but my banks and government services are trying their best.

Zambyte 33 minutes ago | parent

I never understand when people make this argument. Do you just blindly install apps from the app store? Don't you know what you're downloading? Why do you rely any third party like Apple to do "due diligence" in the act of you installing software on your computer?

idiotsecant 32 minutes ago | parent

Yes, now say your prayers to daddy apple that he might protect you in the night.

neko_ranger 19 minutes ago | parent

>I have a reasonable amount of confidence in Apple's due diligence around vetting apps on the app store. I can't think of another major brand that I would trust on this matter.

You should try submitting an app on the app store just to prove to yourself how not true this is. Even in the AI era. They do vet, but it's not as substantial as you think

dmitrygr 6 minutes ago | parent

Impatiently waiting for mobileconfig settings to disable all alt appstores. same reason.

oliyoung 2 minutes ago | parent

And none of this changes that

You have a CHOICE now

Telaneo 42 minutes ago | parent

> Subject to orders 12 and 13, the first respondent must do all things necessary (including procuring any act of any related corporation) to ensure that users of iOS devices can discover, obtain and update iOS apps, including alternative app stores, via distribution channels other than the App Store (including via direct download and alternative app stores) provided those iOS apps have undergone an automated scan for genuine security and/or privacy reasons and been notarised by Apple or a suitably qualified third party (Alternative Distribution Channels), and that app developers can distribute and update such iOS apps to such users via Alternative Distribution Channels, including but not limited to providing access to all tools and APIs (including software development kits):

So notarisation is still on the table? I won't be surprised to see Apple using that for all the loophole its worth.

That is, unless that's already covered by the ruling and I just didn't see it while skimming. Maybe the Alternative Distribution Channels is that, although it doesn't seem to be defined beyond 'a suitably qualified third party', which I'm sure Apple would love to say is no-one.

Still, the rest of it is very nice. The altstores for Apple have seemed kind of useless to me just through either costing money to use or needing to connect to a PC every so often, or needing to perform some other stupid dance. If we can get the F-Droid of iOS and an option to just download and install an IPA if I want to, then I'll be pretty happy.

isodev 37 minutes ago | parent

> I won't be surprised to see Apple using that for all the loophole its worth.

That has already happened on several occasions (Apple refusing notarisation, since you still need to be a member of their Developer Program thus subject to their ToS and all the crazy in it).

Hopefully, the next revision of EU's DMA and equivalent in other countries will close the loop hole.

Or maybe... John Ternus would wake up one day and decide to be a better human being and just fix this globally for everyone.

callc 12 minutes ago | parent

Your pesky morals are no match for my capitalism!

andyferris 37 minutes ago | parent

Seems like sideloaded apps will require notorisation from Apple and some form of automated security/privacy scanning (plus a system for authorising alt stores to do the same).

Payment fees for App Store apps seem to be affected in section 9(c) - I have trouble parsing it but it seem to eliminate any fee difference between purchasing physical goods through an app (currently 0% fee) and digital goods (currently 30% fee). There's a carve out for "reasonable costs" for hosting and distributing the digital goods - this could be sensible in certain scenarios (like Netflix asking Apple to a free CDN for them).

We'll see how much malicious compliance the above produces. Otherwise I'm feeling like a happy Aussie today :)

simondotau 18 minutes ago | parent

As an Aussie, I hope Apple maliciously complies to the minimum extent possible until the same rules are applied to all companies equally. And I mean ALL. Every single computing platform with any kind of loadable software developed by any third party.

If the rules are good enough for Apple, they are good enough for everyone.

This might sound like a defence of Apple, and to a small extent it is. But actually, I’m being deadly serious. I think the world would be a better place if these rules applied to everyone.

“But poor Nintendo” rings as hollow to me as “but poor Apple” probably does to you.

bigyabai 15 minutes ago | parent

I'd be happier if Apple willingly complied, and the rest of the companies were brought to heel next. It sets a cleaner precedent for smaller antitrust cases.

AnthonyMouse 9 minutes ago | parent

> There's a carve out for "reasonable costs" for hosting and distributing the digital goods - this could be sensible in certain scenarios (like Netflix asking Apple to a free CDN for them).

The way this should work is that Apple can charge whatever they want for whatever they want but then nobody can be required to use them instead of a third party. So if they want to charge 30% to distribute your app then that's fine, but then you have the option of having someone else distribute your app to customers with iOS (or hosting it yourself), in which case Apple gets 0%.

At which point they might want to get e.g. 5% of something rather than 30% of nothing.

shaboinkin 34 minutes ago | parent

I wonder if this will result in a situation where Apple will find some other means of getting paid for all of the money they spend on producing the software that allows access to their hardware. How else do you develop apps for iOS, even if you create your own store, without directly using the software and tooling they provide?

isodev 29 minutes ago | parent

I'm ok for Apple to allow (or be forced to allow) users to install alternative operating systems. We all use iOS not because it's great but because there is no other choice.

Of course, this will never happen, it's Apple... they can't even spell competition let alone "libre".

AnthonyMouse 14 minutes ago | parent

> How else do you develop apps for iOS, even if you create your own store, without directly using the software and tooling they provide?

Who do you suppose is the primary entity responsible for making it so that you haven't been able to do this on iOS using the variety of open source and proprietary third party development tools that people use on platforms like Linux and Windows?

dmitrygr 5 minutes ago | parent

Nobody said they have to provide you an SDK for free. This was not always the case in the past, and such times can come again.

quyleanh 21 minutes ago | parent

We need more government join this trend. It benefits for both user and developer.