Yet another Hacker News

Dutch National Cyber Security Center is Offline because it uses PHP

203 points jacquesm 2 hours ago 69 comments

WJW 1 hour ago | parent

Well, the public website of the NCSC is offline. Who knows what crazy proprietary stuff they have.

BlackRabbit1 1 hour ago | parent

PHP 4 maybe? lol

baaym 1 hour ago | parent

Not all hacks are used to steal data. It's an authoritative website. If this hack is used to host a fake PHP fix stuffed with credential stealers then you have a problem.

WJW 1 hour ago | parent

Oh I absolutely agree they should take it offline until the fix is ready, I just mean that the NCSC itself is very much still operational even if their public website is temporarily offline. Like a computer with the monitor switched off.

jacquesm 1 hour ago | parent

I don't know. Still, at a time like this I would expect a 99% static public website to be up, running and serving all comers. This is a complete mission fail, both in terms of using PHP and in terms of not having a fall-back plan in place.

piker 1 hour ago | parent

Due respect, neither of those make sense. PHP is boring software, and this website routinely suggests (1) use it if it is fit for purpose and (2) don't rewrite for the sake of it. For most sites, the engineering effort to have a static backup of their dynamic website (say, generated by Wordpress or Drupal) just isn't possible. They just need to power down and patch.

[EDIT: I see I may have erroneously extended your criticism to sites other than NCSC, for which it does make sense. I would still defend using PHP.]

spockz 12 minutes ago | parent

Why would you use boring tech to dynamically create sites that are inherently static?

Hamuko 1 hour ago | parent

Finnish state services too.

https://yle.fi/a/74-20252600

tosti 1 hour ago | parent

PHP is going to publish the patch in 5 minutes, right? On their website which runs on... Perl Catalyst? Ruby on Rails? Django? What could possibly go wrong?

freshpaint 1 hour ago | parent

It's scheduled to release at 14:00 UTC so around an hour from now.

tosti 1 hour ago | parent

Whoops, sorry, that's right. Thanks!

p-e-w 1 hour ago | parent

Why is this fix “scheduled” rather than ASAP?

worldsavior 1 hour ago | parent

Who knows? Not any official explanation for this.

Ambroos 1 hour ago | parent

Because you need a certain amount of notice and in this case drama to be created so people know to update ASAP, before the exploit is out in the wild. As soon as these patches are out it becomes a lot easier for any actors to figure out exactly what they are patching, and how to exploit it.

Announcing when this patch is going to be released should leave a much shorter vulnerable window with the exploit out in the wild than releasing it immediately and hoping people update before they're a target.

hmry 1 hour ago | parent

Once the fix is released, people will reverse-engineer it and use the exploit on pages that haven't updated yet.

So they need to give time for infra people in all different time zones to wake up, learn about the announcement, and plan how to patch it.

The intended course of action is 1. take down website a few hours before the fix drops 2. apply the fix 3. only make website public again after it has been fixed

NiloCK 1 hour ago | parent

As far as I understand it, releasing this fix also broadcasts the vulnerability.

Scheduled release gives the option to turn things off on a set schedule while applying patches.

e: turns out several people answered this. Whoops.

jayknight 1 hour ago | parent

php.net does run php, but one would assume they are already on the patched version.

https://github.com/php/web-php

Cthulhu_ 52 minutes ago | parent

Given their site is mostly static and currently getting a lot of traffic, wouldn't it make sense to have it mostly be static html?

geerlingguy 1 hour ago | parent

Tons of sites are currently offline to hopefully prevent an attack until they can update PHP; just the things I've run into this morning: OBS, TicketTailor, tons of wikis...

reddalo 1 hour ago | parent

TicketTailor looks up to me?

geerlingguy 1 hour ago | parent

I thought they were down earlier, but apparently they were just pre-announcing being down in about 30 minutes, until they finish patching their servers.

I've seen a number of notifications on X and Bluesky of people taking their sites offline, though. Supposedly Cloudflare is providing all customers a WAF rule that will mitigate the exploits they've been able to see so far (though they mention, this is not full protection—patching is still required).

vanderZwan 8 minutes ago | parent

I don't know, have you done anything to impress them?

Parae 1 hour ago | parent

OBS seems fine

geerlingguy 1 hour ago | parent

Only 'parts' of their website are down currently (e.g. download pages, linked from the home page: https://obsproject.com/welcome-redirect returns a 502).

stingraycharles 1 hour ago | parent

Which kind of makes sense, I think a lot of Dutch websites have been taken offline. I think it’s due to recent regulations that have been introduced.

I think, given the (supposed) seriousness of this issue, it’s an adequate response. I suspect Cloudflare et al will have rules added to their managed WAFs within a few hours after release as well.

That said: it seems like the core issue is that they can’t release PHP publicly without revealing the exploit, wouldn’t it have made more sense to coordinate in the background with these organizations, and important distros, so that this could have been patched without revealing the exploit?

martijnvds 1 hour ago | parent

All it takes is one small leak. Which seems to be what happened here.

stingraycharles 1 hour ago | parent

Ah, so you’re saying that proper orchestration was happening, it’s just that someone leaked it?

trollbridge 1 hour ago | parent

I expect that Cloudflare already knows some details of the problem and will have the rules up within minutes or seconds.

jaydenkieran 1 hour ago | parent

Cloudflare have already deployed WAF managed rules to help mitigate the vuln: https://x.com/dok2001/status/2112811965735202970

But they say it's a stopgap and still advise patching. It makes sense, since their tweet also says "are updating mitigations as new vectors show up" so it seems like there are many ways to exploit this, whatever it is.

apexalpha 1 hour ago | parent

A WAF can block known _exploits_ it doesn't prevent the vulnerability from being abused by a new / other / slightly changed exploit.

esseph 54 minutes ago | parent

You also just described system patching.

rapnie 1 hour ago | parent

> Which kind of makes sense, I think a lot of Dutch websites have been taken offline.

Europa.eu and all related subdomains were down very early CEST morning. They run Drupal.

meffmadd 1 hour ago | parent

Yes our university is doing the same right now! They where thinking of putting the whole network behind VPN access to protect the poor sysadmins in the Institutes that have not updated their website in years…

mkesper 1 hour ago | parent

That's why (mostly) static sites should be delivered as static HTML.

graemep 1 hour ago | parent

I just moved my last PHP site, my personal blog, to a static site generator. It looks like my timing was lucky!

The only significant thing lost of comments, but they have been getting more spammy over the years. Its actually better now too in many ways and I fixed various issues during the move.

woile 1 hour ago | parent

I've started using atproto as comments on my static blog:

https://sequoia.pub/comments

geerlingguy 1 hour ago | parent

I'm using Remark42; some downsides but somehow, spam has not been a big issue for me. https://remark42.com

apexalpha 1 hour ago | parent

Exactly!

Unfortunately my static HTML is pre-rendered by a PHP engine before being served.

cm-t 1 hour ago | parent

You might want to use Cecil ( https://github.com/Cecilapp/Cecil )

It's a static web site generator, powered by php :)

Cthulhu_ 55 minutes ago | parent

That's not a problem - as long as the PHP scripts are not reachable by the general public you should be fine, generally speaking.

These particular vulnerabilities affect PHP scripts accepting POST requests as far as I've been able to gather so far.

CodeCompost 1 hour ago | parent

How do you deal with end users wanting to edit their content? They have no clue what Markdown or Git is.

eddythompson80 42 minutes ago | parent

Which is why suggestions like OP’s are never useful or actually serious. I honestly consider them snobby. Like the person who tells you you really ought to check your engine oil, radiator fluid, and brakes everytime you get in a car. It would prevent some awful issues sure, but it’s not gonna happen for 99% of people.

Having static site generator still require an admin endpoint that end users can use to author, publish or otherwise manage the content. Pushing that to a local tool means now you need to somehow synchronize that content across all of the end users devices without git. Not to mention if there is no server side component that means the client needs to have full permission to publish content on the server. Until recently ssh was the only option. Maybe someone could vibe an iroh app that gives you a vpn'd server side app without that now.

louwrentius 1 hour ago | parent

It's easy to harp on PHP but I wonder if we're going to get this kind of vulnerabilities in languages like Python or Go soon too.

phplovesong 1 hour ago | parent

Probably not. PHP is so badly built these kinds of things happen frequently.

Avamander 1 hour ago | parent

PHP is worse in this aspect with its long tail of legacy and staying close to C. It's absolutely possible that memory-unsafe Python interpreters could have something vaguely similar, but it's much less likely. Plus there are Python interpreters in memory-safe languages.

In any case, memory-unsafe codebases will continue to be a significant danger. Be it in interpreters or anywhere else. Just like they have been for the past 20+ years.

jonwinstanley 1 hour ago | parent

The way things are going, I imagine there are going to be vulnerabilities found in everything

sam_lowry_ 1 hour ago | parent

Also the Belgian Centre for Cybersecurity is down https://ccb.belgium.be/

Dark day for Drupal and Wordpress, heh

p-e-w 1 hour ago | parent

I know nothing about the Belgian Center for Cybersecurity, but the fact that they are running a platform that has been infamous for its security issues for 25 years, and been considered essentially obsolete for 15 years, immediately makes me not take them seriously.

This is like a Health Ministry recommending leech therapy to its employees.

sam_lowry_ 1 hour ago | parent

What platform hasn't had security issues?

Anyway.

CCB is overtly a marketing organization, not an IT security one.

IIRC they don't even host their own website, The Chancellery of the Prime Minister does it for them.

Avamander 1 hour ago | parent

> What platform hasn't had security issues?

That's reducing things too far. "What car manufacturer hasn't had car crashes?" All cars are equally safe?

There's a vast difference between different languages and CMSs and how likely it is for critical flaws to occur. PHP has a horrible track record and continues to surprise us negatively.

brazukadev 14 minutes ago | parent

This attitude is what needs to change if we are going to be serious about security. Everything needs to be checked.

freecodeio 1 hour ago | parent

my thoughts and prayers to the stubborn php 4-6 developers who refused to upgrade since 7 and now they have breaking changes with the new 9.2

jjice 1 hour ago | parent

I fought hard about four years ago at a previous company to upgrade us from PHP 5 to 8 because I think 5 was going EOL or something like that (could be wrong about that now). Based on my experience in software, I have to imagine the vast majority of normal developers do not give a damn about security in being in security patch lifecycles on software.

forgotaccount3 1 hour ago | parent

> I have to imagine the vast majority of normal developers do not give a damn about security in being in security patch lifecycles on software.

I just don't think it's the developer's responsibility.

Depending on the size of the team of course, but the work that developer's do comes from someone else. Empower me to make decisions and I'll make them, but don't blame me for the choices other people make if you won't empower me.

jjice 1 hour ago | parent

I think I get where you're coming from. I've worked mostly on small teams (sub 30) so it's always been on us. The engineering leadership never prioritizes security unless it's something as big as the log4J stuff because it was on customers' minds.

That said, if they're software packages from something like Node or PyPI, I do think that it falls on the developer. If the point is that leadership needs to give devs the ability to act on that, that's very fair.

expedition32 31 minutes ago | parent

That's the problem with the tech industry. Nobody gives a fuck.

When a doctor makes a mistake they get to practice medicine in Peru for the rest of their life.

Cthulhu_ 53 minutes ago | parent

I've worked at a company that delivered on-premise software, and the runners of said software were... risk-averse, but in a strange way in that they didn't really want to upgrade software if it didn't need to. So the software was stuck on PHP 5.something, also because newer versions required a RHEL update which they also didn't like to do.

bombcar 1 hour ago | parent

Probably easier to back port the patch to 4-6 code than upgrade to 9.2.

Once it's out it's likely to be an easy "disable this damnable feature nobody needs" as usual.

rocky_raccoon 49 minutes ago | parent

I feel like I'm reading a conversation between bots.

There's no such thing as PHP 6. There's no such thing as PHP 9.2.

2OEH8eoCRo0 1 hour ago | parent

All my favorite private trackers such as empornium are down :(

panstromek 1 hour ago | parent

Not sure if that's the name or a typo but I'm not gonna lookup that

4ggr0 23 minutes ago | parent

bit the bullet, it is what you think it is.

dmitrijbelikov 1 hour ago | parent

Never enough blame PHP/s

phplovesong 1 hour ago | parent

PHP strikes again.

rasz 1 hour ago | parent

so is Australian one https://www.cyber.gov.au. It was still working ~hour ago just returning 403 on alerts subsection https://www.cyber.gov.au/alert/critical-vulnerabilities-in-p... but now its whole thing.

gaiagraphia 1 hour ago | parent

>The National Cyber Security Center (NCSC)

>Safely ahead in a digitally resilient Netherlands.

Things being offline seems like a daily occurrence recently. Is it a co-incidence? Is it AI? Are Russia/Iran doing an e-blitzkrieg?

If it's a combination of all three, surely nation states are going to unleash everything possible right now and do as much damage before the world adapts and becomes resilient?

If the latter, would be interesting to put an actual cost on all this downtime and whether it's actually making any impact, or is just noise/free training.

amosj 1 hour ago | parent

Also explainxkcd: https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page

> Today, a remote code execution vulnerability was found in PHP, called php2shell. [...] Since explain xkcd is affected by this exploit, I have decided to take the wiki down until tomorrow.

HelloUsername 1 hour ago | parent

Maybe change URL to https://web.archive.org/web/20261021115632/https://www.ncsc.... ?

aequitas 30 minutes ago | parent

Lots of obsolete PHP still being used by the Dutch government: https://basisbeveiliging.nl/museum/NL/