149 points wawayanda 22 hours ago 54 comments

modinfo 21 hours ago | parent

Explained in 1 min video https://hn.watch/?item=50118828

ifh-hn 21 hours ago | parent

We're getting a new kitchen and this is all my wife is talking about. Good help me.

TheRealPomax 21 hours ago | parent

This could have done without the "I am a kitchen equipment nerd, you can stop rolling your eyes" immediately followed by "I thought induction tops used tempered glass but they don't??" intro undermining the rest of the article.

It's like a bit like someone opening their article with "I am a bit of a PC building nerd, stop rolling your eyes, so anyway I thought you could just plug an enterprise NVMe drive into any motherboard but it turns out you can't??"

CommieBobDole 20 hours ago | parent

Looks like Dekton is primarily a countertop material and the reason the cooktop doesn't come with the normal top is it's designed to be hidden under a countertop for trendy minimalist kitchen design reasons. Which also goes against the "kitchen equipment nerd" framing since the hidden induction cooktops seem to be worse in several ways than the normal visible ones.

jandrese 21 hours ago | parent

Was anybody disappointed that he didn't mention the price of that cooktop? He had all of that leadup with the price of normal glass ($30/ft^2), but never told us what he paid for the fancy porcelain.

masklinn 20 hours ago | parent

> the surface could not be tempered glass […] a sheet of which costs maybe $30 per square foot, but a special, newly created material called Dekton that cost five times as much

Seems like he’s giving a ballpark of 150 here.

mindslight 20 hours ago | parent

I know there is a difference between expensive and Expensive, but is there an induction cooktop that isn't pricey?

I went with a basic Frigidaire model, and sure ~$1500 is not unaffordable. It's just a lot for what it is, because the market is still pricing induction as some bespoke premium option.

dublinben 20 hours ago | parent

Ikea will sell you an induction cooktop for about 300 Euros. The price scales pretty well from 220-850 Euros depending on the size and number of burners. Prices should come down once the US catches up to the rest of the global market.

https://www.ikea.com/ie/en/cat/induction-hobs-20813/

mindslight 19 hours ago | parent

Yeah, the low cost basis and high markup is my gripe. If there were $1500 worth of specialty parts in there, I wouldn't be complaining. But appliance sellers have gotten really good at equating "physically big" to "high priced". As for the US "catching up", well, about that...

einarfd 20 hours ago | parent

That must be a result of where you live. Had look at the web pages of the biggest Norwegian retailer of kitchen electronics, Elkjøp. You can get weird brand name induction cooktops for less that 300 USD, and well known brands like Electrolux and Simens for slightly more. There is also the ten times more expensive offerings, if that is what you want. That we have no tradition for gas cooking here, could perhaps make a difference.

zebrafruit 20 hours ago | parent

It’s interesting that the focus is on porcelain as a cooking surface but misses the biggest reasons for it displacing engineered quartz or granite for countertops. There’s a few factors at play here leading to the prominence of porcelain.

For the induction cooktops, you can cut porcelain slabs to 6mm compared to your 3cm (sometimes 2cm) quartz and granite. This is also why you can use it for walls and floors. The thinner materials allow the magnets to actually function.

The manufacturing process for engineered quartz is now being interwoven with silicosis through the legal system, leading to manufacturers marketing “low silica” quartz at a cost premium. This premium is closing the cost gap with porcelain. This is the main economic and legal reason as jurisdictions- Australia and maybe soon California look to ban these products forcing the market towards natural stones.

If you’re then selecting from natural stones, porcelain is essentially used as printer paper for whatever stone pattern is desired, and given that people tend to want things that look like marble, this “ink” is essentially free for the manufacturing process, making the porcelain look like marble more than quartz or granite.

Engineered quartz is also not a great exterior material, again yielding to porcelain.

woah 20 hours ago | parent

Engineered quartz looks like natural stone because it has depth and translucency, and each piece is somewhat unique because it is made by hand sprinkling various powders into a mass that gets pressed and cured. This is also why it sells for as much as natural stone. Porcelain may be physically superior but it does look like "printer paper".

majormajor 9 hours ago | parent

> Engineered quartz looks like natural stone...also why it sells for as much as natural stone.

I mean, it doesn't actually look like natural stone, though. At least not the mid-to-high-end stones. (Or sell for as much as it.) The floor can be similar if you're looking at some of the cheaper natural stone options, but the ceiling is extremely different. And the really unique depth and transparency of natural stone pushes much more toward the ceiling. Engineered quartz looks like a composite with some tells. I did some extensive shopping for countertops last year, it very much has a specific look. It just looks *different enough& from entry-level countertop options people are most familiar with that it doesn't (yet) read "cost-cutting" to less-familiar renters or buyers. And it presents a lot of attractive durability aspects to people concerned with that re: natural stone. Eventually I have no doubt that it'll be prevalant enough—if not regulated away—that it'll be pattern-recognitioned as "2020s basic" kinda like a modern formica.

Porcelain is also not widely seen yet, which presents the same benefit (especially because many of the "basic"-grade/inoffensive options that flippers or apartment builders want have practically no depth to them even if they're true natural stone!).

amluto 17 hours ago | parent

Many natural stones are, depending on precise application, pretty bad for exterior use.

rightnutwingjob 13 hours ago | parent

> The manufacturing process for engineered quartz is now being interwoven with silicosis through the legal system, leading to manufacturers marketing “low silica” quartz at a cost premium. This premium is closing the cost gap with porcelain. This is the main economic and legal reason as jurisdictions- Australia and maybe soon California look to ban these products forcing the market towards natural stones.

This is wrong, and the response to it was misguided.

The problem never was the manufacturing process, as manufacturers, especially in Australia, are well aware of occupational hazard.

The problem was people cutting engineer stone dry and without respiratory protection. You can’t really dry cut anything that vaporises or aerosolises without creating some kind of hazard. There was one 26 year old guy here in Australia who’d been cutting engineered stone on site, dry, with no or insufficient respiratory protection, and was expected to check out before turning 30.

The response, banning the products is misguided, because natural stones present approximately the exact same risks. Namely, you can aerosolise any stone and deliberately hoof the particles and expect good outcomes.

The correct response was to ensure the people working with the product follow the correct safety protocols.

But this being Australia, next time something like this happens, Anika Wells will just ban us from talking about it, if the toxic Labor-Greens federal government get their way.

majormajor 9 hours ago | parent

The fabrication for install is the issue, yes.

But: Natural stone has nowhere near the same magnitude of damage from the same level of exposure. And often it's not on-site (or outdoors) and the people working in those facilities are getting far more damage than the ones working on natural stone.

juleiie 20 hours ago | parent

Honestly most often it isn’t actual kitchen nerd stuff but just hyper consumerism under thin guise of “it’s my hobby”, “I am a kitchen/bathroom/garage/phone nerd”. Just an excuse for powerful chemical sensation of buying

I have caught myself in this many times, mesmerised by shining advertisements that promise when I buy this super duper kitchen appliance or material, my life will be finally complete.

The worst thing is that it indeed works and you are indeed in heaven for the first two weeks of usage but the thrill fades fast.

To keep up the dopamine you must keep looking for ways to increase your revenue just to make more purchases that feel so good.

Of course this is unsustainable usually so you decide that fuck it, what a dead end, let’s read the books from the library instead.

That tension nowadays between becoming prey to marketing and living authentically I can feel it all the time. Everyone wants to sell me some kind of identity.

In my opinion books are the true cure for it all. When you read the books, Dostoyevsky, Kafka, for completely free, you no longer consume. Government probably hates that.

If everyone did this economy would collapse immediately.

pnut 18 hours ago | parent

Surely reading is also a form of consumerism, and real freedom is writing/creating?

juleiie 4 hours ago | parent

Reading itself is an intellectual and imaginative activity, not consumerism. However, how people acquire and treat books can easily slip into consumerism and overconsumption

When Reading Becomes Consumerism:

Book Hoarding & Hauls: Buying massive stacks of physical books faster than you can realistically read them (often driven by social media trends like BookTok or Instagram).

Aesthetic Collecting: Treating books as interior decor, buying multiple special editions of the same title, or prioritizing how a bookshelf looks on camera rather than the text inside.

Surface Level Consumption: Reading purely for status, volume goals (like churning through 100 books a year for a tracking app), or keeping up with hype rather than deep engagement.

Why Reading Itself Is Not Consumerism:

The Act Is Immersive: Engaging with a story, learning a concept, or exploring ideas requires time, mental effort, and imagination. the exact opposite of passive commercial consumption.

Low Cost or Free Access: You do not have to buy anything to read. Public libraries, used bookstores, digital swaps, and public domain archives make reading widely accessible outside of retail markets.

Long Term Relationship: Unlike fast fashion or single-use goods, a well-loved book is often kept, reread, annotated, or passed down for decades.

So as you can see modern publishing relies on consumerism to drive profits and exist in an economic sense but it is not remotely the same as a pure act of experiencing literature detached from collectible drive or acquisition.

In similar vein you can experience a sunset by consuming a product - a travel agency trip. The act of watching the sunset is not consumerism. Yet the purchase of the holiday trip is consumption.

Buying a brand new, special edition hardback from a massive retail chain is the equivalent of buying the holiday trip. Actually sitting quietly, turning the pages, and letting your mind build a story is the equivalent of watching the sun go down.

However I am not claiming that capitalism or consumerism is inherently bad. No one managed to ever establish the connection in a rigorous scientific way that capitalism is morally bad and eg. Communism is morally good despite countless attempts to prove so. (When Cohen realized that a pure exploitation framework could actually justify inequality (like a naturally gifted person earning millions and keeping it all, à la Robert Nozick's Wilt Chamberlain argument), he had a "Road to Damascus" moment. He realized he didn't actually care about arcane Marxist economic formulas; he cared about human beings having enough to live a dignified life.)

Too much of consumerism is definitely unhealthy and so it is important to know what is consumerism and what isn’t to apply the antidote once in a while while keeping the economy we all profit from in a good shape.

wafflemaker 17 hours ago | parent

>If everyone did this economy would collapse immediately.

So true. Kafka and Dostoyevsky are also quite a dopamine detox, because they're flat out boring and the pleasure is really fed with a syringe and worked hard for.

But the bit about society collapsing reminds me of Rick and Morty Covid* season finale after the credits. Where they made a small outro about their merch, asking people to buy their merch, buy anything, keep consuming, to keep the economy going and the world running. Read by Rick's drunk hiccup filled voice.

* everyone one was scared of a real recession, but ppl did keep buying stuff.

juleiie 3 hours ago | parent

I am not so ideologically driven, merely mental health driven but you have to admit that irony of a Reddit communist buying communist merch or identity brand is delicious.

Frankly, pertaining online religions, I am more into anti church, gnostic feminist type of Christianity focused on the way Jesus lived and what he teached as opposed to later perversions of his teachings than either of the nowadays fashionable ideologies or the horror of what Catholic Church has become or always was.

Not that I manage to live such life as Jesus but I consider it significant.

frankus 20 hours ago | parent

I thought the benchmark for pricey induction cooktops was Impulse (I love mine but even at the preorder + tax credit price it was a splurge). But then I realized there’s probably a kitchen equivalent of audiophile gear, where you pay through the nose for something lesser nerds wouldn’t even notice (maybe every nerdy niche has an equivalent of audiophile gear?).

linksnapzz 18 hours ago | parent

An AGA stove.

chihuahua 15 hours ago | parent

Especially the type that's always on, because waiting to preheat is for poors.

solyin 15 hours ago | parent

Sub-zero for fridge/freezers.

tnolet 20 hours ago | parent

Had a new kitchen and bathroom installed last year. Most surfaces (kitchen counter, shower and general bath room) all Dekton or one of Cosentino’s other lines.

I was apprehensive: it is expensive and “not real stone”.

Super happy with it. Spilling red wine, putting sizzling hot pans on it, accidentally dropping big pans on it. Dekton brushes it off.

Go into debt if you have to.

testaccount28 20 hours ago | parent

investor?

tnolet 20 hours ago | parent

No. Genuinely happy customer. Not everything is a psyop.

onraglanroad 20 hours ago | parent

> shower and general bath room)...Spilling red wine, putting sizzling hot pans on it, accidentally dropping big pans on it.

You're either using your bathroom wrong, or have a vastly more interesting sex life than I do.

(Yeah, I missed the kitchen counter on first reading)

vvillena 20 hours ago | parent

"Dropping big pans on it" is actually the weak point of Dekton. If you hit it hard it can chip away. Otherwise, the material is more or less indestructible.

shaan7 19 hours ago | parent

Exactly why we changed it to natural stone at the last minute. Otherwise Dekton seemed pretty awesome. But we needed something literally indestructible, even if its thicker than Dekton ;)

mindslight 19 hours ago | parent

"Go into debt" seems like a terrible idea compared to just making due what's already there. My kid puts rocks on the counter. The old laminate doesn't shrug it off, but I sure do.

If it's not an investment, don't go into debt. And a premium finish is not an investment, unfortunately. If you sell soon, you won't recover the cost. And if you sell down the line, it will be out of fashion regardless of how well it physically held up.

By all means splurge on yourself if that's what you want! Just don't justify it by framing it as an investment that you should be taking on debt for.

huhtenberg 18 hours ago | parent

I'm pretty sure it was just a joke on GP's part.

mindslight 17 hours ago | parent

Sure, I'm all for jokes. I personally think HN needs more jokes. Jokes play on and reinforce social values though, which is what I am critiquing.

ghaff 19 hours ago | parent

Fortunately when I had to have my kitchen redone after a fire my brother already had it in his kitchen(s?). Which gave both me and my designer confidence that I would like it at scale that she was a bit nervous about.

stronglikedan 18 hours ago | parent

Considering how much she paid for it, my jaw dropped when my mom first scolded me for putting a hot pan directly on her brand new quartz counter top. I'll take my cheap (probably fake) granite any day over such a useless counter. Like your Dekton, it just brushes everything off.

ghaff 17 hours ago | parent

On general principle I’ll probably put some sort of pad down. Likely unnecessary but it takes 10 seconds.

l-albertovich 16 hours ago | parent

I wouldn't go in debt but I'd pay the premium again, we're really happy with our countertops, especially considering that it allowed us to make them thinner which my wife wanted seemed to be a big no-no with other materials.

akoboldfrying 10 hours ago | parent

I can see how thinness is a benefit for induction heating, but how does it benefit a regular countertop?

l-albertovich 6 hours ago | parent

Not really, we did consider one of those fancy new induction systems that goes through the countertop but there were too many limitations (ie. there had to be a cut in the countertop which was a deal breaker for my wife).

The reason for the thinner countertop was merely preference, she wanted it that way and I wanted her to be happy.

myelin 14 hours ago | parent

Our Dekton countertops are great, although we have managed to put a tiny chip in it - I think it was dropping a small glass jar from about 3-4 feet up?

The reason we went for it because it appears to be the only way to get a light-colored stone countertop that won't stain when you spill red wine or tomato sauce on it. It has been excellent, hasn't picked up any stains at all.

throwaway219450 20 hours ago | parent

The article misses an important bit of context (imo) that low thermal expansion glasses like CERAN have been around for ages and anyone who’s used an induction or a glass top stove would be familiar. However you can now get completely hidden stoves that look like stone countertops. If you’re not in the market for a kitchen, or know anyone people who recently remodeled it’s reasonable to not know they exist. I don’t know anyone with one, and everyone in our town still has gas. The author doesn’t explain which one they were buying, but it seems like the latter?

Normal induction glass top stoves are a unit that drops into the countertop so of course you get the glass included (because at the very least, it has the decal for the cook zones and controller built in). The invisible ones only come with the burners so you can custom fit the top. Looks like you can get them off AliExpress even. It seems like this is the point of confusion - the author thought he could go down to a glazing shop to buy some tough glass..?

I suggest go and watch Huygens Optics series about CERAN:

https://youtu.be/qi8jmEbWsxU

Androcles 20 hours ago | parent

From the Cosentino site it appears it doesn't like thermal shock. It's best to avoid placing hot items directly from the microwave onto Dekton surfaces.

seemaze 20 hours ago | parent

>Dekton cause atoms in the particles of kaolinite and quartz to diffuse across the boundaries where they touch, turning the entire thing into what amounts to a single solid mass

I'm no materials scentist, is this a physically accurate description?

throw0101c 19 hours ago | parent

For when areas, like showers, there are particular products with a hight anti-slip rating per DIN 51097 ("Class C"; also EN 16165, ANSI A326.3, etc):

* https://assetstools.cosentino.com/api/v1/bynder/doc/221CDFBE...

icodestuff 18 hours ago | parent

I wanted Dekton for my new countertops. Its list of resistances to various kitchen mishaps was extremely impressive. Every other material we looked at has at least one weakness. Dekton was marketed as having none. It also looked quite good, being available in lots of colors and patterns. The real drawback was going to be the price. It's basically the most expensive countertop material (or was, 2 years ago).

And then a ~3x3" sample I was looking at Home Depot slipped and fell on the floor, from under 3 feet in height. It landed more or less flat on its face and absolutely exploded over ~25 square feet. The internal stresses in this stuff are nuts. Then I found YouTube videos evaluating it. Everything they claim seems to be accurate, except for shatter resistance. Any sort of focused stress (one video dropped a bearing ball from a couple feet up) will absolutely wreck it.

Ended up going with a high-quality quartz instead. Not as much heat resistance as Dekton, but it won't break if something falls out of a cabinet.

amluto 17 hours ago | parent

There are third-party tests that mostly validate this. Dekton appears to be rather more prone to breakage due to impact than most other countertop materials.

sawjet 14 hours ago | parent

I used to cut this stuff as part of a previous job. Imagine a kitchen-sized cnc water jet/saw.

We had to cut a prescribed pattern out of the edges of the slab to relieve stresses. Even at 2cm thickness it was slower to cut than any 3cm natural stone.

Part of the job was smashing the offcuts with a sledge to fit more stone per dumpster. Smashing dekton is like when you get a bad hit with a baseball bat and you feel it through your elbows and shoulders. Every time, like nothing else.

I think it looks like crap. Maybe good for high traffic floors or wall treatments where weight is a concern.

apaprocki 12 hours ago | parent

I wound up using a single whole slab of Dekton as a vertical backsplash highlight but otherwise used Silestone for the countertops precisely because nothing was impacting the backsplash but it was way more possible on the countertop.

DoctorOetker 11 hours ago | parent

Is there a reason they don't just anneal the slabs to remove the internal stresses?

dan353hehe 9 hours ago | parent

That tension between the skin and the center are probably what give it strength. Annealing it would make it less prone to shatter so violently, but would also make it break easier.

Check out prince rupert drops for another example of this.

DoctorOetker 9 hours ago | parent

I think it would gain toughness, but lose hardness by annealing.

majormajor 9 hours ago | parent

> It's basically the most expensive countertop material (or was, 2 years ago).

You should see some of the more unique "statement" showoff-level marbles and quartzites out there. ;)

tomp 18 hours ago | parent

I give my best reviews to dekton.

Torture it however much you want - heat (dish straight from the oven at 240C), acid, oil, scratching, etc. it resists all.

Only thing: use 2cm thick, thinner 1.2cm could crack if you drop a pan onto it.