Yet another Hacker News

Registration without a phone number on Signal will use zero-knowledge proofs

58 points Cider9986 3 hours ago 26 comments

atiq-ca 1 hour ago | parent

Signal still uses proprietary blob and uses google/apple service for notifications. Use molly.im instead which has solved these problems.

ranger_danger 1 hour ago | parent

I tried it and it was fine while it worked, but eventually I had to go back to regular Signal because Molly's updates did not follow Signal's closely enough, and at some point the server code changed enough to where I was unable to use it for an unacceptable amount of time (after checking, it took them weeks to update). Something to keep in mind if you're not using a custom server.

blfr 1 hour ago | parent

Maybe it's because I use Molly as a secondary device (my tablet) but I never had an issue where it didn't work for weeks.

Cider9986 1 hour ago | parent

Molly is a security-hardened Signal client only on Android for people unfamiliar. They went through a period of not updating (there were no security updates during that time afaict), but now releases should happen faster on top of Signal.

In Molly there's three options. Google Play Services, WebSocket, and UnifiedPush.

I use the WebSocket and Molly has used >1% of battery since the last full charge so it doesn't seem like play services would improve battery but maybe if I had more apps depending on it..

Google and Apple can't see the notification content but they can see metadata. If you want metadata privacy you should use SimpleX instead anyway.

rkagerer 1 hour ago | parent

If you're using WebSocket, how do Google and Apple see metadata? Can someone explain why it's so difficult to make a decent chat app divorced from their ecosystems?

Cider9986 39 minutes ago | parent

I'm talking about using play services or Apple's version. Signal falls back to a WebSocket if you don't have play services installed.

john01dav 1 hour ago | parent

The native Signal android app delivers notifications just fine without Google play services on my degoogled android.

opan 1 hour ago | parent

I was using Silence from F-Droid for a while back in the day because of these issues, but the lack of interop and needing to make everyone move again soured me on the whole thing. I would rather just get people on XMPP or Matrix and not use some sketchy phone-first app at all. For SMS I use Fossify Messages, which I think was a fork of QKSMS. I don't use SMS as primary or sensitive comms, only as needed. Same as email, basically, but less useful.

nosioptar 48 minutes ago | parent

I really liked silence. I stopped using it when f-droid said the source code was no longer available. Fossify messages is the best replacement I've found.

(I dont bother with encrypted messenging apps. I prefer to assume that anything I do on my phone is doubleplus unprivate. If I want privacy, I head over to my computer.)

ynniv 1 hour ago | parent

you can't wave your hands, say "zero knowledge", and be private. this is too little information to be useful

rkagerer 1 hour ago | parent

Lots of discussion at that link, but what's the bottom line? Can you register without a phone number yet?

opengrass 57 minutes ago | parent

Per the commits, this will require a purchase with Google Play Billing to mitigate spam while keeping the SMS verification option.

mmooss 47 minutes ago | parent

What about their built-in cryptocurrency? It's a perfect use for it. They could require payment post-install yet before message can be sent.

Cider9986 32 minutes ago | parent

Nobody uses that and I think it was pre-mined. They should have implemented Monero but the UX isn't there. Maybe a Monero light wallet server run by Signal.

They probably avoid Monero to not attract the additional scrutiny. They don't even accept donations in Monero.

Cider9986 31 minutes ago | parent

It says something about Play Billing being used specifically to mitigate spam?

I understand using play payments initially but hopefully eventually there's a way to buy an account without going through google.

opengrass 14 minutes ago | parent

Add ability to pay for a signal login.

https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Android/commit/7da3357b5...

user3939382 55 minutes ago | parent

I don't trust Signal. The device OSes and hardware are opaque, chatty, not private or trustworthy, the network backbone is completely owned by dragnet surveillance, Dual_EC_DRBG flavored shenanigans, so how could an app running on top of this suddenly be trustworthy? Especially one that's super high profile which signals inside a dragnet "someone is working especially hard to make this secret".

bawolff 48 minutes ago | parent

Viewing any security thing as a binary is the wrong way to look at it. Figure out your adversaries, how much power they have and what they are willing to spend. Make your decisions from there.

I personally think signal is sufficient for the threats the average person is concerned about, but that is a decision each individual has to make for themselves.

420official 41 minutes ago | parent

Is it your expectation that E2E is broken by these "dragnet surveillance" networks? Surely not?

I concede that if you can't trust the device itself you can't trust anything running on it, but why have you resigned yourself to that? And how does that reflect on signal at all?

mmooss 34 minutes ago | parent

> Is it your expectation that E2E is broken by these "dragnet surveillance" networks? Surely not?

While I disagree with these critiques of Signal, the surveillance networks can capture metadata - who talks to who and when - without breaking E2E. The metadata is as valuable as the data.

I think Signal has a feature to protect users, but I can't imagine how it works if the attacker can see all parties' Internet connections.

ggm 50 minutes ago | parent

For those who missed it, unrelated to this specific ZKP thing the release cycle also now permits Android tablets without a SIM to be first-class adjunct devices without using wierd tricks or alternate clients. It may permit them to be the initiation/sign-on device, which would invoke the ZKP, but the point for me as an existing phone number denominated user, the point is I can be on my tablet with true signal now. Nothing against molly, wanted it in the base.

opengrass 44 minutes ago | parent

You can already do that without being a trusted device.

ggm 17 minutes ago | parent

For the longest time, you couldn't. It wasn't until this release I realised that had changed. If it changed before, it wasn't well communicated to me as an Android signal user. I was on beeper and then molly precisely because there was so little traction on changing this. You could install signal fine, but you couldn't QR code or secret phrase mesh it with your android handset. Oddly, iPad meshed fine with iPhone or Android, and OSX desktop likewise. Just Android tablet which didn't.

Do you think this changed in over 18 months? I think it changed in under 18 months.

purpleidea 46 minutes ago | parent

Signal needs to release all the infra automation code behind their backend. How they setup and manage it all should not be secret. It also makes it easy to rebuild if for some reason they are compromised. They've ghosted multiple people about this question. There's no reason a 501(c)(3) shouldn't release it.

s0ss 27 minutes ago | parent

I’m not sure their tax status is the justification your argument needs.

smalltorch 18 minutes ago | parent

The commit history is kinda wild